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-   -   viola-tor's MPG problem thread (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=772404)

viola-tor 03-12-2012 10:39 PM

viola-tor's MPG problem thread
 
Porting this conversation over from the "Got Tunes ECU" thread, since it's getting way off topic over there.

Here's my problem with my '07 990:

- Did canni/SAS/Flappy, 15 min idle, afterwards getting 23 MPG (down from upper 30s) and have the dreaded throttle "snatch" between 4500-5500 RPM (did not have it bad before), experiencing crazy bucking/surging/stalling. Replaced fuel filters which solved bucking/stalling, but still have "snatchiness" and 23 MPG.

- Used TuneECU to load Akro map, 15 min idle, 50 mile test ride at 23 MPG

- Taken apart again trying to locate mechanical problem. Air leak? Fuel Leak? Mucked up SAS or Canni removal?

That's where I am now.


There are only three components to this issue (to simplify it):
1. Fuel
2. Air
3. F.I. Computer (sensors, ECU, etc)

Right? Has to be one or more of these components ganging up on me.


Here's me double checking my work:

removing and blowing through these hoses and nozzles to confirm passage of air. New "S" hose for SAS removal:

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-GpmrhMf-L.jpg


And these hoses and nozzles up to sensors (confirmed airflow through):

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-H4xWtHg-L.jpg

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-vRTfgvn-L.jpg


remove/clean/inspect fuel cross-over tube. Looks good, no leaks or obvious trauma, nice flexible rubbery feel.

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-Km3tTVH-L.jpg


Tank vent hoses (new routing after cannisterectomy). As you can see, the upper vent hose of the left tank HAS been draining gas down (I swiveled the nozzle 180 degrees to point downwards)... could this be the culprit??? :ear Flapendectomy performed... (right tank has no evidence of gas out of vent hose)

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-RNWGP76-L.jpg


Removed/cleaned/inspected/re-installed both block-off plates with sealant (even that pain in the ass front one. Again).

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-8TXrHPF-L.jpg


Checking air-box: There is some oil splatter... Not much

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-57nnZPG-L.jpg

From this tube (not sure what it is called, Crankcase breather???):

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-ffzLKMB-L.jpg

Double checked new air box plug:

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-qM4G6Sg-L.jpg


Valve stems are pretty gritty down in there, not sure if that's a prob. or a symptom or what:

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-Hsrt4NB-L.jpg



I also confirmed throttle cable is not too tight (just replaced it). seems just right to me, just a teeny bit of play before it starts to pull against spring.

The line from the fuel pump to the throttlebodies/injectors also looks and feels healthy and happy. I don't see any leaks.

I'm running out of idears... My work seems solid, all connectors are snug, no wires danging unplugged and no leftover bolts. I know my bike is dirty, but that shouldn't be the problem, eh?!? :D Hmmmmm...

Do I need to sync throttle bodies or something? I did have them out and cleaned inspected them...

Replace or disable O2 sensor?? I don't even know where it is, is it this thing?

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-SZ4g6ZR-L.jpg


Help me O.C., you're my only hope...

bikyto 03-12-2012 11:03 PM

Yes that's one of the o2 sensors that you're pointing at. The other one is near the shock on the other pipe.

Are they turned on or off at this time?

Yes balance your throttle bodies with Tuneecu. You should be able to get them within 10hpa or less. Double check your tps.
The rest of it seems really sound.

Could you tell me which map you're running? The actually map name.

viola-tor 03-12-2012 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikyto (Post 18203656)
Yes that's one of the o2 sensors that you're pointing at. The other one is near the shock on the other pipe.

Are they turned on or off at this time?

Yes balance your throttle bodies with Tuneecu. You should be able to get them within 10hpa or less. Double check your tps.
The rest of it seems really sound.

Could you tell me which map you're running? The actually map name.


I think O2's are still on, not sure... can't really plug it in while bike is apart right? Or can I check that as that map is still loaded on the software? (I'm using two diff computers: I'm a Mac guy, borrowed and ancient PC with XP for the tuneECU, it doesn't even have WIFI, so I'm juggling thumb drives and stumbling my way through Windows... How pedestrian! :D)

TPS - I can "check" that in TuneECU too? Or do you mean visually or mechanically check? Is that the small black box on the side of the throttle bodies?

Map name: <big><big>KM601AK0704501Map.hex OEM<small><small> </small></small></big></big>KTM 990 Adventure EU 07-08 model years with Akropovic slip-on exhaust US spec.

from here: http://www.tomhamburg.net/KTM_Tune_list.html

bikyto 03-12-2012 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viola-tor (Post 18203688)
I think O2's are still on, not sure... can't really plug it in while bike is apart right? Or can I check that as that map is still loaded on the software? (I'm using two diff computers: I'm a Mac guy, borrowed and ancient PC with XP for the tuneECU, it doesn't even have WIFI, so I'm juggling thumb drives and stumbling my way through Windows... How pedestrian! :D)

TPS - I can "check" that in TuneECU too? Or do you mean visually or mechanically check? Is that the small black box on the side of the throttle bodies?

Map name: <BIG><BIG>KM601AK0704501Map.hex OEM<SMALL><SMALL> </SMALL></SMALL></BIG></BIG>KTM 990 Adventure EU 07-08 model years with Akropovic slip-on exhaust US spec.

from here: http://www.tomhamburg.net/KTM_Tune_list.html

Try this map. <TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: left; WIDTH: 967px" border=1 cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,204,204); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: rgb(0,0,153)" vAlign=undefined><SMALL style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">KM601AK0702S01Map.hex OEM md5checksum</SMALL></TD><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,204,204); WIDTH: 667px; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" vAlign=undefined><SMALL style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">KTM 990 Adventure 07-08 model years with Akrapovic Titanium slip-on exhaust </SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>http://www.tuneecu.com/Tunes_in_Hex_...0702S01Map.zip

O2 should be turned off with this map.
In TuneECU: TPS should be checked after TBs sync when the engine is warm. Yes it's the small black box on the side of the throttle bodies. You want to check the one on the front cylinder.

EDIT: you still have the stock airbox??

viola-tor 03-13-2012 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikyto (Post 18203767)
Try this map. <table style="TEXT-ALIGN: left; WIDTH: 967px" border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2"><tbody><tr><td style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,204,204); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: rgb(0,0,153)" valign="undefined"><small style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">KM601AK0702S01Map.hex OEM md5checksum</small></td><td style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,204,204); WIDTH: 667px; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" valign="undefined"><small style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">KTM 990 Adventure 07-08 model years with Akrapovic Titanium slip-on exhaust </small></td></tr></tbody></table>http://www.tuneecu.com/Tunes_in_Hex_...0702S01Map.zip

O2 should be turned off with this map.
In TuneECU: TPS should be checked after TBs sync when the engine is warm. Yes it's the small black box on the side of the throttle bodies. You want to check the one on the front cylinder.

EDIT: you still have the stock airbox??


Yes, stock airbox (other than blocking off the SAS hole). I run the Uni PreFilter, and the fancy reuseable air filter inside (BMC? Can't remember brand).

Okay, yes, I'll try that map when I get it all buttoned up.

Any more ideas of things to check while I'm ''in?" I'm getting weary of breaking thing beast down again and again... But I'm getting faster!

bikyto 03-13-2012 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viola-tor (Post 18203783)
Yes, stock airbox (other than blocking off the SAS hole). I run the Uni PreFilter, and the fancy reuseable air filter inside (BMC? Can't remember brand).

ok good, I was running the uni filter too before I changed airbox and it didn't change my mileage either. The BMC filter has a bit better air flow but it shouldn't affect mileage much.

Let me know how it goes after the map switch. I've had issues with euro maps before. I couldn't pin point why since KTM doesn't release the specs of their bikes.

bikyto 03-13-2012 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viola-tor (Post 18203783)
Any more ideas of things to check while I'm ''in?" I'm getting weary of breaking thing beast down again and again... But I'm getting faster!

the rest of your removal process looks good.

while you're in there, I'd have a look at the sparkplugs (which wouldn't have an impact of the problem you're having since you are saying that the bike runs well). Just have a look at the color of the plug just to make sure it's burning as it should. I suspect they might be a little black and have residue on them.

Does it backfire? Is the exhaust line clean at the slip on? does it smell like it did before while running?

gefr 03-13-2012 01:30 AM

I suppose you checked the nozzles of these pressure sensors
 
To be sound, with no cracks at their connection to the sensors, no cuts/leaks of the hoses.
Left fuel tank looks rubbing to a hose. If you get a vent hose turning sharply, could get nicked when warmed up and block. I had this experience.
Cheers.

Sumi 03-13-2012 01:39 AM

why are the vacuums connected on the intakes? imo, they shouldn't be connected together with an "S"-hose..

IMO this is what's fooling the airflow or whatever it's called sensor, which is hooked up to the rear cylinders vac. port. (this way it'll get a vac. reading of both cylinders constantly, or something like that)
This would also explain the mpg drop, as the airflow sensor or whatever is missreading the airflow (more airflow), and the ECU follows this by adding more fuel - trying to maintain a good AFR -> mpg droping.

So I'd say, cut the "S" hose between the vac. ports, and fit screws or whatever to cap them off at the end of the hoses -> be sure to properly terminate them one by one. When done, and engine is running, you can spray WD-40 on the base and end of the hoses, and see if rpm varries.. if so, then it's not sealing properly.

Kenbike 03-13-2012 02:19 AM

My 2007 was doing the same thing and I chased every issue from grounds to plugged sensors. I gave up and took the bike to PowerTripp Performance in Birmingham,Al. He found the factory Akro map was way rich and the timing was so retarded in lower RPM's it would never run good. I picked up 7 hp, get 37 mpg, and it is smooth and does not have any flat spots. The 2007 -2008 ECU on the bikes are just a terrible program and you will have to keep loading tunes or get it on a dyno with Tune ECU.

Your other option is AF1 Racing in your area. Micha is a great tuner and has worked on some bikes with tune ecu and may get it sorted for you. Another guy just installed a PCV with auto tune and it cleaned up his. Just changing the fuel rates will not get rid of the timing issues so it needs both.

Salzig 03-13-2012 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumi (Post 18203991)
why are the vacuums connected on the intakes? imo, they shouldn't be connected together with an "S"-hose..

+1
Here's a picture of my '07 Euro spec. (so w/o cannister)
For each manifold, one vacuum port belongs to the pressure sensor and the other is blocked with a bolt.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-u...0/IMG_0003.JPG

gefr 03-13-2012 02:28 AM

I agree. No 'S'hose on my bike either.
 
I just checked the "HOW" and it describes pluging these holes. This must be it.
Cheers.

xdbx 03-13-2012 05:05 AM

I also agree. What you're doing with that s hose is linking the cylinders post throttle body. Something may be getting confused. My suggestion is remove thr s hose ad screw small screws to seal the holes. You should do this with both sides If it's just open, that's considered a vaccum leak and directly correlates to snatch throttle and bucking.

What I did was loop the hose around so each cylinder was plugged into itself until I sourced stainless hardware small enough to block the holes in the intakes where you have your s hose. I assume the 990s need one side for a pressure sensor, so plug the other side as suggested earlier.

Eager to hear if that helps. :thumb

ShoelessJoe 03-13-2012 05:16 AM

"S-hose" If I remember correctly the S-hose was done after the first few removals to cure similar problems to what you are having, but at this point it is worth a try.

You mentioned that you replaced the throttle cable...if you have not done the "adjust throttle cable" test in TuneEcu, you might want to try that. Not sure if that has been mentioned yet. There is an explanation in the TuneEcu manual. It is different from the triumph one shown in the youtube video.

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/...ottlecable.jpg

A lot of talk about the O2 sensor and association with different maps and I am a little confused. As I was trying different maps I would just turn it on/off at the bottom,load map, 15min idle, then test.

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/...r/O2Sensor.jpg

I am running TuneEcu version 2.0.0.2. I think there is an updated version out now.

DirtJack 03-13-2012 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viola-tor (Post 18203594)
removing and blowing through these hoses and nozzles to confirm passage of air. New "S" hose for SAS removal:

http://viola-tor.smugmug.com/photos/...-GpmrhMf-L.jpg

Diek, I think, as others have noted, that part of your problem is the hose connecting the two throttle bodies. Remove it and the fittings and block the holes with short M6 bolts and blue loctite.


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