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-   -   Energy Conserving Oil (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816805)

Süsser Tod 08-12-2012 11:41 AM

Energy Conserving Oil
 
You've got to avoid those evil "Energy Conserving Oils" on motorcycles, mostly because the additives will play a number on the wet clutch. There are also some people that argue that the transmission "chews" up the oil and that is why motorcycles require more expensive motorcycle specific oil.

I'm happy with diesel HDMOs on my bikes, but I went shopping for 1 quart of oil for the scooter and...

The engine on the scooter doesn't have a wet clutch, nor a tranmission to lubricate, it's just the engine... Just like in a car.

My scooter is my commuter/grocery getter, she sees a lot of cold startups and doesn't get to run very far that often. Manual calls for 10W-40 oil, which is unobtainable here, closest I can get is 15W-40. But what if I went with 5W-30 oil? It's energy conserving, which shouldn't be a problem for the scooter, it will be thinner for those cold startups, and maybe free up 0.001hp :eek1

First oil change at 500kms will be done with regular, and cheap, 15W-40 dinosaur oil (Wally's World Super Tech), it should only last for 500kms. Break in should be complete by the next oil change and first service, at 1000kms, I'm thinking maybe trying 5W-30 on that oil change.

What do ADV Battle Scooter Riders think abou 5W-30 oil on a scooter?

Dabears 08-12-2012 11:52 AM

Most vehicles have a scale of oil recommendations based on operating temperature. I always just stay in the guidelines unless it's been a vehicle that was high miles or had worn valve guides.

I would have thought Mexico City would trend toward higher temperatures. If I could absolutely not get 10w 40 (what's up with that??) , then I would use 15w 40 before I used 5w30.

hexnut 08-12-2012 12:50 PM

15W40 would be what I would use. The thicker oil film at higher temps will protect better.

Personally, I use Mobil 1 4T synthetic motorcycle oil in my Kymco even though it doesn't have a wet clutch. The Mobil 1 motorcycle oil has a lot more anti wear additives (ZDDP) thats good for the flat tappet valve train.

=retread= 08-12-2012 02:25 PM

do not have 10w-30 either? that would be better than 5w-30.

hexnut 08-12-2012 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groo-v-1 (Post 19343686)
do not have 10w-30 either? that would be better than 5w-30.

Why, they are both 30 weight at operating temp.

0w, 5w, 10w, etc.is not weight but an somewhat arbitrary rating based on the oil low temperature flow and pumping characteristics - SAE J300 (1999) Motor Oil Grades- Low Temperature Specifications. I say somewhat arbitrary in that an oil that meets the 0w standard can be rated 5w or 10w because of the myth that "W" means weight ( it means winter) and 95-99% of the folks that recommend/sale/change oil believe this myth.

The viscosity of the low "W" rating is taken at about zero degrees Fahrenheit and the viscosity of the second rating at 210 degrees Fahrenheit.

The lower "W" viscosity provides for better flow and lubrication during cold starts and warm up in cold temps.

In the issue of a place like Mexico City where the temp rarely gets low, the viscosity of a 5W-30 oil and a 10W-30 oil will be damn close to the same at ambient temperatures, as they are significantly above zero F, and the blend's viscosity increases with increased temperature.

Süsser Tod 08-12-2012 07:11 PM

LOL, Mexico City's weather is very mild. It rarely gets to 32F in the Winter, but it does a few days, and it rarely goes over 90F in Spring/Summer. Currently it's 55F. Not all of Mexico is a desert.

I'll switch to synthetic on the 3rd oil change, at 4,000kms. For some weird reason, all the maintenance intervals are at 4,000kms, but oil changes are every 3,000kms. I rather extend the oil change intervals to 4,000kms and I'll use synthetic oil to extend them from every 3K to every 4K. If I were to follow the maintenance intervals as it says on the manual:
Oil change at 500mks.

1st service at 1,000kms, includes oil change.

2nd service at 4,000kms, includes oil change.

Oil change at 7,000kms.

3rd service at 8,000kms, no oil change. (WTF!?)

Oil change at 10,000kms.

4rth service at 12,000kms, no oil change. (again, WTF?)

Oil change at 13,000kms.

5th service at 16,000kms, includes oil change.
I'll use synthetic oil and go with 4,000km oil changes. I know on GY6 scooters you shouldn't extend OCI no matter what kind of oil you're running, but unlike the GY6, this scooter does have an oil filter.

I do have access to 5W-30 and 10W-30, both are energy conserving, and I'm well aware that "W" stands for "winter". In theory said 5W-30 will flow a little better than 10W-30 when cold. I'm not really worried about the thickness of the oil at very warm temperatures as my commute is 4 miles, most of the time the oil won't even get as hot as for that to matter.

MODNROD 08-13-2012 02:38 AM

I've used Redline 10W40 synthetic to great success on air-cooled motors in the past, everything from Z750E Kwaka to CB350twin Honda to VW Bug, both the stock 1600 motor and also a 7000rpm 1641cc hotrod. It's US-manufacture, so might be easier to get there than here.
The Redline oil in particular flows really quick on start-up, has fantastic film strength, but most importantly has about the best heat-transferral properties of any oil I've tried (hence the air-cooled bit).
I routinely double the OCI when using it, because it doesn't absorb impurities anything like a conventional mineral oil.

By the way, my son lived in Montreal for years, but went to Mexico City for his bi-annual holidays with his best mate and family. He likened the weather to a mild spring/autumn all year round.:clap

YOUNZ 08-13-2012 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hexnut (Post 19343771)
Why, they are both 30 weight at operating temp.

0w, 5w, 10w, etc.is not weight but an somewhat arbitrary rating based on the oil low temperature flow and pumping characteristics - SAE J300 (1999) Motor Oil Grades- Low Temperature Specifications. I say somewhat arbitrary in that an oil that meets the 0w standard can be rated 5w or 10w because of the myth that "W" means weight ( it means winter) and 95-99% of the folks that recommend/sale/change oil believe this myth.

The viscosity of the low "W" rating is taken at about zero degrees Fahrenheit and the viscosity of the second rating at 210 degrees Fahrenheit.

The lower "W" viscosity provides for better flow and lubrication during cold starts and warm up in cold temps.

In the issue of a place like Mexico City where the temp rarely gets low, the viscosity of a 5W-30 oil and a 10W-30 oil will be damn close to the same at ambient temperatures, as they are significantly above zero F, and the blend's viscosity increases with increased temperature.

It would seem, the term, weight, is a slang word for viscosity, rather than a myth?

klaviator 08-13-2012 03:58 AM

Why not go with a 5w-40. I use Rotella 5w-40 full synthetic.

=retread= 08-13-2012 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaviator (Post 19347682)
Why not go with a 5w-40. I use Rotella 5w-40 full synthetic.

so what would be the advantage of useing 5w verses the recommended 10w,or even a 15w,sounds to me like a 40's a 40. do you use it in both your scoots?

klaviator 08-13-2012 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groo-v-1 (Post 19347871)
so what would be the advantage of useing 5w verses the recommended 10w,or even a 15w,sounds to me like a 40's a 40. do you use it in both your scoots?

The advantage of 5w is that it will work better on start in cold weather. Otherwise it's the same as a 10w-40 or 15w-40. I use it in both of my scooters. In my motorcycles I use Rotella 15w-40 conventional oil. I don't ride my motorcycles that much and end up changing the oil annually rather than because of mileage so I don't see the need for synthetic.

I use Rotella because it's a heavy duty oil but is relatively inexpensive. If the Rotella synthetic came in 10w-40 I'd use it but it only comes in 5w-40.

topless 08-13-2012 05:47 AM

Having been a specialty oil distributor for almost 20 years, let me do a quick rundown on a couple of things.
First, the multiviscosity oil ratings are based on viscosity at low temperature and that the higher viscosity is done with additives. By 140 degrees, the oil has reached the higher viscosity.
Synthetic oils will always out perform mineral oils in: friction reduction and resistance to oxidation breakdown.
Not all synthetics are equal. The base oil is the difference. The cheapest is PAO, the most expensive is Ester. PAO is only better than mineral oil because it's molecular structure is more uniform. If you want the best, use an ester based oil, but you will have to spend more to get it.
You have to know if your bike has wet clutches, using an oil that does not have the MA ( motorcycle) rating will cause slippage and damage to the clutch pack.
Check your owners manual to get the proper SAE rating to use. Remember that SAE ratings are constantly changing, and being updated, so a newer rating can be used in place of an older one. In older bikes, using a diesel oil will give you better lubrication because of the high pressure additives ( ZDDP) used to protect bearings from damage. They have removed those from modern automotive oils as they are not needed with roller cams, etc.
Personally, I run an ester based motorcycle oil purchased from the local dealer. You have to know which oils are ester based, and if you don't know, ask the guy at the parts counter, he will, because motorcycle racers will only run ester based oils.

hexnut 08-13-2012 06:34 AM

All ZDDP,Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate has not been removed. It went from 1200 to 1400 down to around 800 ppm.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

Süsser Tod 08-13-2012 08:41 AM

Redline, PAO and Ester base oils, just waiting for someone to talk about Amsoil for this to become a complete, full blown, oil thread.

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to create another oil thread...


1. My oil selection is very limited, no Amsoil, Redline or whatever. I only know for sure of two Ester oils for sale in the Mexican Market, all of them motorcycle specific and only one of them is 10W-40. I'm not going to spend $15+ a quart in Ester oil that will be changed every 4,000kms.

2. Non-motorcycle specific oils, or car oils, are a shot in the dark. It's really impossible to know if whatever is in the bottle of a given brand oil is the same in the Mexican, European and USA markets.

3. I'm confident PAO oils will do fine on the extended OCI from 3,000kms to 4,000kms.

hexnut 08-13-2012 08:56 AM

OK...

Amsoil is a small company with only blending facilities, they don't have refineries to produce synthetic base stock oils.. Who do they buy these pao base stock oils from???

Their major supplier of PAO base stock is Exxon/Mobil, the largest producer of synthetic oils in the world. They purchase some Group III base stocks from Shell, Petro Canada, and others. About 90% of their additive packages come from Lubrizoil.

Back to your question...
The first number is not that important where you live, 5/10/15 will be fine. Personally I would try to stay with 40 on the 2nd number. Synthetic will hold up better to high temps in the air cooled scooter engine.


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