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-   -   Oil-ATF (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=849366)

rotorhead511 12-17-2012 05:49 PM

Oil-ATF
 
First, feel free to hit with a "did you try a search?" hammer on the topic.

My bike calls for 10w40 oil and the guy I bought it from thinks he used Amsoil. I read that ATF works best in these bikes and was wondering:

Has anyone had any experience with ATF?

Can I switch right now even after conventional oil has been used?

Is Amsoil blue? Blue is what's in the bike now.

Thanks all.

Sting32 12-17-2012 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorhead511 (Post 20272350)
First, feel free to hit with a "did you try a search?" hammer on the topic.

My bike calls for 10w40 oil and the guy I bought it from thinks he used Amsoil. I read that ATF works best in these bikes and was wondering:

Has anyone had any experience with ATF?

Can I switch right now even after conventional oil has been used?

Is Amsoil blue? Blue is what's in the bike now.

Thanks all.


DUDE, what bike? be specific, with year and make model.

Just sayin, honestly you cant say every trials bike takes any generality statement like, they all like ATF...

FWIW, I've only dealt with Gasgas bikes since '01. As trials riders and using the bikes only for trials, we have been using ATF for a long time now and in gasgas it is generally accepted "OK" for trials use.

BUT, FWIW I dont use ATF in my own personal Raga, but I do in my sons's raga, and my older gasgas bikes, but I use other oils/types/weights because of clutch feel and preferences.

But we're not using the trials bikes like hair scrambles Enduro or MX either. When I caught the teen motocrossin the 06 Pro he used to have, he was grounded to the camp, after his class got done, for sake of saving the bike from what I call abuse.

Some of my gasgas riding buddies, are using other oils. Motul comes to mind as a brand, used by some, not sure what weight. I like Yamalube 0w/30 myself. I cant get motul and some others, as easily as the Yamalube, I buy easy to get not too expensive oil that makes my clutch feel the way I like it.

Plus, GASGAS "pro" engines since 02, lube the main crank bearings with the oil in trans/clutch area. So, I change the oil with less than 10 hours of run time, aka once a month, just before the trials meet. oil is cheap, tearing down engine to swap parts, is expensive, figuring 2 hours minimum to get apart, and decent mechanics are NOT cheap. I cant tell you specifics about other brands of trials bikes, nor will I be able to go back in time before the 1st gasgas I bought, was a 1999 321.

Beta or Sherco, honda-tessa might not like ATF. so each bike has different things they like, and riders "likes" vary as well.

BTW: i dont use ATF in my yamaha ty250 or fantic 240, or suzuki, or honda trials bikes I have either.
so, as you see it matters what bike, IMHO at least, plus what you doing with it..

Tosh Togo 12-17-2012 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting32 (Post 20272857)
DUDE, what bike? be specific, with year and make model.

Just sayin, honestly you cant say every trials bike takes any generality statement like, they all like ATF...


...Beta or Sherco, honda-tessa might not like ATF. so each bike has different things they like, and riders "likes" vary as well.

BTW: i dont use ATF in my yamaha ty250 or fantic 240, or suzuki, or honda trials bikes I have either.
so, as you see it matters what bike, IMHO at least, plus what you doing with it..

:thumb :thumb

The only thing that you missed is inquiry as to WHY the OP thinks that there's an advantage created by using ATF instead of the manufacturer-recommended 10W40. :ear


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_tBh5ORa6LO...20/pitting.gif

rotorhead511 12-18-2012 04:00 AM

Sting, my signature line has my bike in it. Sorry you missed that. I use 10w50 in my KTM and 10w30 in my Jeep. This was not a sweeping hand ATF for all question. I saw a video through the GasGas USA web site that recommended the ATF.

I'm new to trials and the bike and just looking for info.

DerViking 12-18-2012 04:36 AM

I run ATF in mine. I like how it engages. Despite busting just about everything else, my 07 gasser is on it's original clutch, and I wick it up on trail. I do wear rubber gloves during oil changes, the ATF makes my hands puff up pretty bad. I run Chevron, it's available down the street. :D

dptropepe 12-18-2012 05:13 AM

The "blue" stuff may be GM Auto trak 2. That is what the Gas Gas Pro model has in it from the factory. I keep coming back to Auto trak 2 in my '07 Raga because it seems to work best for me.

laser17 12-18-2012 06:40 AM

The advantage of ATF is primarily related to how the clutch feels. The clutch is of primary importance in trials. Many top riders like a fast engagement of the clutch. On the Pro, a switch to ATF-F will give you a hard clutch bite/quick engagement. The 10-40 oils while providing decent shift feel, will be much slower engagement AND can also cause more clutch drag; especially in cold weather. That said, many novice riders prefer the 10-40 oils. It tends to let the clutch slip more and the end effect is a nice smooth engagement. This is easier for a novice to control.

The blue stuff is GM auto trak II transfer case fluid used on chevy 4x4's. (theres a clutch pak in the transfer case) In my experience, it works really well, but is expensive. Acts like 10-40 but w/o the drag. The OEM oil is NOT GM Auto-trak - never has been. Probably dealer installed in above case. More likely its GRO - 10-40. (since 06 I think - but not readily avail over here)

I use ATF-Dextron III. Its not as hard biting as Type F. Its also Very Cheap and sold everywhere (walmart ect..) So I (my wallet) have no problem changing it every 10 hrs to keep it nice and clean. (I know several guys who change it more than that to keep the clutch feel optimal) I used to use GM Auto Trak II, but it was expensive, hard to find in a pinch, and recently the USA parts importer said 100% synthetic fluids can cause problems. (I never had any)

If you like the amsoil 10-40, that will work OK IMO. Except its also 100% synthetic and again the USA parts guy says thats bad. He see's more replaced clutch paks than anyone in the USA, but I know many who love the stuff. Go figure. Hence why I use the above ATF.

SherpaT 12-18-2012 10:12 AM

This is from the "Pro_Technical_Bulletin_October_2_2012.doc", under the GASGAS PRO TECHNICAL INFORMATION section at
http://www.trialspartsusa.com/tech.html

Transmission oil:
Recommend type: ATF DEXRON III

Alternatives:
NOTE: GASGAS Spain recommends only Dexron III automatic transmission oil at this time.

Oil type warning:

DO NOT USE #12378508 GM auto-trac II (blue) oil

Never use synthetic oil in the transmission~clutch. The synthetic oils are “stickier” and this adhesion tendency, when applied to the areas between the clutch plates contribute to excessive clutch drag. Some brands of synthetic oil will chemically react when mixed with water, (from creeks, rain, or waterpump seal leakage). This reaction alters the pH factor of the oil. This acidic condition accelerates corrosion of steel engine parts, and loosens the bond of the clutch fiber plate material. Please do not second-guess this information. We have twelve years of experience with the Herbringer/Adige brand clutch plate materials, and we are in direct contact with the technical department at GASGAS Spain.

PSchrauber 12-18-2012 10:43 AM

I use Elf HTX 740 a gear oil of ATF type, btw. recommended by Honda Montesa 4RT.
I use it for the SWM, even the mighty Bultaco Sherpa and the Yamaha TY.
The oil works very well especially improve clutch action ... but expensive.

ragtoplvr 12-18-2012 10:52 AM

GM has updated the spec for Dexron, the new Dex 6 is much lower viscosity and synthetic.

So you will want to continue to find Dex 3. Of GM says backwards compatible, and no longer certifies Dex 3

Just saying.

Rod

kellymac530 12-18-2012 11:37 AM

The advantage of ATF in a MC is that it is specifically designed for clutches, that is how an AT works, series of clutch packs inside of a planetary gear system.

The disadvantage is that it is HIGH in detergent, that is good for the clutch because it rinses out the burned up clutch debris so the clutch always feels new and good, but a MC does not have the trans filter set up that a AT has to filter out that losened debris and not that is running around in your gear box. Disadavantage 2 is that the high detergent ATF can froth and foam up which lowers the oil level in the trans and cause premature wear.

I would also not use automotive 10/30,40,50 motor oil in a motorcycle engine because it has NO provision for the clutches. Auto engines have no clutch material, it is only about slippery and viscosity. A motorcycle oil needs to lubricating for the gears, but no so slipery that is causes the clutch to slip and thus premature wear.

I only use a good motorcycle oil made for wet clutch bikes in the factory recommended viscosity. Maybe lighter weight if not in hot riding conditions, but never heavier.

That come from years in the automotive field and many seminars on oil products from Lucas, Redline, Amzoil, and oil addative companies. Not an authority here, just a good bit of experience FWIW.

laser17 12-18-2012 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SherpaT (Post 20276878)
This is from the "Pro_Technical_Bulletin_October_2_2012.doc", under the GASGAS PRO TECHNICAL INFORMATION section at
http://www.trialspartsusa.com/tech.html

Transmission oil:
Recommend type: ATF DEXRON III

Alternatives:
NOTE: GASGAS Spain recommends only Dexron III automatic transmission oil at this time.

Oil type warning:

DO NOT USE #12378508 GM auto-trac II (blue) oil

Never use synthetic oil in the transmission~clutch. The synthetic oils are “stickier” and this adhesion tendency, when applied to the areas between the clutch plates contribute to excessive clutch drag. Some brands of synthetic oil will chemically react when mixed with water, (from creeks, rain, or waterpump seal leakage). This reaction alters the pH factor of the oil. This acidic condition accelerates corrosion of steel engine parts, and loosens the bond of the clutch fiber plate material. Please do not second-guess this information. We have twelve years of experience with the Herbringer/Adige brand clutch plate materials, and we are in direct contact with the technical department at GASGAS Spain.

Yes- this is what im referring to above. Many folks disregard his warning as GG UK recommends synthetics...go figure. I trust Jims judgement on these things and beside, the smurf oil is expensive.

motorcyclemark 12-18-2012 01:30 PM

Sting, the only 0/30 yamaha oil I see is semisynthetic and made for snowmobiles, Is this what you are using?

Sting32 12-18-2012 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorhead511 (Post 20274860)
Sting, my signature line has my bike in it. Sorry you missed that. I use 10w50 in my KTM and 10w30 in my Jeep. This was not a sweeping hand ATF for all question. I saw a video through the GasGas USA web site that recommended the ATF.

I'm new to trials and the bike and just looking for info.

Yep, missed it (by that much!)

there are guys chiming in, they wanna only use the amount and type specified, that is just fine. I can read a book too.

If you take ****ANY**** advice from me at all, my advice comes from competiton point of view and usage.
****I dont motocross the trials bike, not even slightly.

I use yamalube 0w/30 (semi synthetic).

I love it. If you use your bike any differently, dont do what I said. Because it works for me in KANSAS, doesnt mean it is perfect for you....

Just sayin.:wink:

kellymac530 12-18-2012 02:35 PM

rotorhead,
I did not mean to suggest a person shouldd ONLY run the recommended weight. There are many mitigating reasons to change viscositys and engine performace is one of them. Lighter weight oil will cause less friction and thus free up more useable HP.

As Sting says, what he uses works for him.

I would be curious though that Sting is recommending 0w-30 semi-syn and that may be a great oil, I like yamalube products, that is specifically a 4 stroke snowmobile engine oil....your GG 280 is a 2 stroke and the oil formulation is different....there are reasons why ALL of the oil companies designate 2t and 4t on their oils.....even though it is all in a gear box.

Besides a snowmobile does NOT have a wet clutch as a motorcycle {most of them anyway} does so that oil would not have the additives needed to help clutch life and performance.

I am sure the feel in his clutch is fine, but that is not the same as GOOD for the clutch.

This is not just coming from reading a manual....40 years of motorcycles, hot rods and parts counter work and even took a WEEK long course on oil the dumb manufacturer called OIL COLLEGE....lol to much.


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