We're building an ICF house

I replied to his email and summarized the events.

-He wanted to "save us money" by pouring the walls and floor at the same time.
-We told him we didn't want to save money and just wanted to do it in two pours (and pay for the pump truck twice)
-He convinced us that it would be OK, and no big deal.
-He told me how to brace the outside of the walls using his bracing
-I used every piece he had on site and followed his plan
-There was a major blowout along the walls and we lost at least 1/2 yard of concrete, which ended up on our main level and basement floor
-The bracing was not sufficient and the walls bowed in
-We put in temporary wood bracing to fix the walls while they were still wet. This got them pretty good, but that bracing was in the wet concrete floor that we poured.
-Contractor had a difficult time power screeding floor due to wooden bracing
-Wooden bracing was removed to finish floor
-Walls bowed back in while floor was being finished- 2 inches from true in the middles
-Floors are uneven, close to 2 inches out according to the laser.
-Contractor offered no solution
-Contractor was offered money and turned it down
-Contractor sent bill with letter about friendship and fairness
-I paid contractor for all his materials
-I did not pay contractor for his labor bill
-I decided that the "fair" thing to do was subtract the cost to fix or cover his mistakes from his final labor bill
-I noted that us hiring him came with the expectation that he would not experiment on our project and that the end results would be "near perfect" which was the case on the lower two levels.
-I also noted that it was wrong to place the blame on me for insufficient bracing since he came up with the bracing plan and I followed it out.

I think this is the last I'll write of it here. I'm not worried about the outcome, and I recognize that there are two sides to every story. The contractor obviously feels that I let him down in some capacity, and he is welcome to his opinion and perspective.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for the advice, much of which was through PM. What an awesome group of people here.

I know that there are two sides to every story but the end result is what YOU are now stuck with. I think that you are being MORE than fair. A floor that is two inches out?! Shit, my garage floor was done one inch out and it sucks. Even if you didn't follow his plan or use his braces it would have been his call to not pour until it was corrected. Sometimes it takes a problem to see someone for who they are. Mistakes happen but I think his bill and note have shown who this guy is. I would be embarrassed if I left someone with those results if I had volunteered my labor for free. Your wife is right to be steamed.

Edit- I'm in industrial optics manufacturing. My work has to pass the customers QC for me to get paid. Would his finished product pass anyone's QC? I don't think my customers would take my optics for free if I said that I wouldn't bill them for stuff that doesn't pass inspection, "But please be a good reference." Even if that stupid scenario came to pass, then I send a bill with a note like that? I'd be laughed out of the optics community. What a load of shit.

Two inches out and not level is absurd. He should have fixed it completely before you moved forward with the stick framing but that ship has sailed. I'm pretty sure there is no mutually acceptable resolution to this so you have to decide who is going to take the financial hit. I'd have a hard time paying the guy.

On the bright side, it sounds like you have a good GC who can mimize the issues going forward. How will they "fix" the floor issues and the bowed walls? Self leveling underlayment and furring strips?

So the fix for the floor is to repour something self leveling over it and float a finished floor on top.

The fix for the walls- they've stick built on top of them and anchored everything appropriately. Only they started straight and level, using a laser and string accordingly. The bad walls are being padded on both sides to match up with the true walls above them. The sucky part is that the walls for 2 whole stories underneath are near perfect. It looks like someone else did the 3rd story to be honest.

I'm not losing sleep over it. The GC has gone into it with a great attitude, and after talking with his crew I'm confident. They have given me a bit of ribbing over it but they quickly learned that I can dish it out too.

So- on another note: What color would you guys paint this house. We are leaning toward stuff in the blue/green/gray family. Certainteed has 2 colors that come close, but will also custom paint ANY color.

Ideas appreciated!

I'll assume you're talking the outside of the house. Blues and greys are a good choice, and offer something of a contrast to the surrounding landscape, without being overbearing. Browns would almost make the place disappear in the fall and winter, and red tones would make it look too much like a barn (Unless that's what you want) Are you going with wood shake or composite shingles on the roof?

Standing seam roof. Most likely a dark gray like you see on most standing seam roofs.

My dad did a standing seam roof many years ago. He was around 70 or so. When I say he did it, I don't mean he had someone do it for him. Beautiful copper roof all nice and shiny. I asked him what would have happened if he'd had a heart attack up there. His response was typical Dad: "Well, if the heart attack didn't kill me, then the fall would have finished the job. No problem" :huh I figured you might do a seam roof, what with your climate and all. makes the snow come off easier......
If it's grey, then yeah, grey/green or blue/grey paint scheme.......

Ha!
We'd love a copper roof, but the contractor did some rough math the other day and figured it to cost us about $80,000. :huh
I've done one roof before with asphalt shingles (myself) and I'm NOT afraid of heights, but I learned that I don't like working on roofs.
Our GC has got this one covered. No pun intended.


In other news I did a LOT of dirt work today. Did another row of rocks for the retaining wall and curved them into the driveway. Started on the lower side of the house- at least backfilling against the deck footings. I've gotta do a rock wall below those as well. Then I did a rock wall on the far side of the house. Unfortunately that's the rock wall that nobody is going to see. There was one pesky oak stump that took a good 10 minutes to dig up. I ran a power line right by it, so I could only dig on one side. Later in the day a pesky oak tree kept getting in my way so I pushed it over and moved it.

I'm going to miss the excavator- two guys are apparently coming to look at it this week.

A few more pictures. They've got the 12-12 pitched roof started, so it's starting to shape up.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/HYWkoXlqo6mjrltW3eMRzNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GS3rx4sVnmA/UH838ebLlQI/AAAAAAAAASw/9ie5xt359c8/s640/PA170005.JPG" height="480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/115670853405340716908/October172012?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">October 17, 2012</a></td></tr></table>
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mRghTCNQYDcmlI6I33kJUdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-egs5-GI2F-o/UH835wUcMXI/AAAAAAAAASc/aVJrSgMCN1g/s640/PA170003.JPG" height="480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/115670853405340716908/October172012?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">October 17, 2012</a></td></tr></table>
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/5bQGcgHp4T-49IfSEeISqdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y3kq8odIpvw/UH8355Zk_1I/AAAAAAAAASg/ZP0U0GvG5q0/s640/PA170001.JPG" height="640" width="480" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/115670853405340716908/October172012?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">October 17, 2012</a></td></tr></table>
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/C1VTPk-Y8vtQrA7LVP7_f9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IP61ISZeXUI/UH838XAUJ8I/AAAAAAAAAS0/oSZeyQdoECA/s640/PA170006.JPG" height="480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/115670853405340716908/October172012?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">October 17, 2012</a></td></tr></table>

NICE!!!!

Very nice indeed!

Very cool build!

My sister and her family just completed a SCIP home, replacing the home they lost in the Boulder fourmile fire a few years back.

SCIP = Structural Concrete Insulated Panel. Similar in many ways to ICF, but instead of pouring concrete inside of polystyrene foam, structural shotcrete is sprayed on both sides of the foam forms, creating an extremely strong exoskeleton structure.

Don't want to hijack your thread... Here is a extremely abbreviated timeline of their build, more pictures at the link:
Escape Route

That looks pretty cool- never seen or heard of that before!

I'm curious as to how they did interior structural elements- specifically the floor system.

I'll bet that place heats with a candle.



We just met with our builder and things are going well. They're making good progress and we went over some decking details- specifically the railing. I don't know when it'll get done, but you'll have to wait for pictures.

A few thoughts on your contractor experiences....

Building with any sort of alternative construction technique (and these days, "alternative" seems to mean anything not 2x stick frame, sheetrock on the inside and OSB on the outside, and a composite roof ), it seems like you just cant get around contractor issues... Even ones with "experience" end up running into far more unexpected issues, delays, cost overruns, and outright screw ups than with the most conventional techniques. The SCIP build resulted in a really amazing home, but there were many, many, many unexpected issues along the way.

Sorry you had some issues, but I'm sure the end result will be well worth it.

The thermal mass is huge with a ridiculous insulation rating. It has a boiler/radiant heat system, as well as a wood stove for heat, but you are right, it stays incredibly cool in the summer and holds heat unbelievably in the winter. It is also, literally, quiet as a cave inside.

You can do anything you want with SCIP... Second level floors, roof structures, stairs, interior walls etc. For cost reasons, just the exterior walls and all vertical structure are SCIP. The shotcrete is smooth troweled and whitewashed as the finish on the inside of the exterior walls.

The first floor is concrete slab, stained/polished as the finish floor. The second floor is conventional trus-joist with cork on top, sheet rock underneath. The roof is engineered trusses with sprayed-in foam for insulation and a standing seam metal roof. The few interior partition walls in the home are conventional stick frame and sheetrock.

One of the cool things about SCIP is that there are no structural posts and no structural steel beams. If you need a column for support, you just whack one up out of the foam panels and spray it. If you look at the photo below, you'll see the ledger board just bolted to the foam panels... Once the concrete is sprayed, that is the supporting structure. No steel posts, no wood columns. The floor joists are just hung on that ledger board. The interior partition walls do provide some additional structural support, but again only because they were chosen instead of SCIP for some cost control.


Same for the roof. The trusses just sit on a 2x top plate that sits on top of the SCIP panels.

A few more shots showing the interior partition walls, insulation, and roof trusses.

Two more thoughts...

To make you feel a bit less 'unlucky', I'll share with you that on the SCIP build, we had an entire wall blow out during a windstorm before the shot-crete was put in.

Since the top shotcrete layer is also the interior finish and exterior color coat, you need to pretty much build the foam walls with *everything* before you shoot *anything*, including windows, doors, roof trusses, soffits, etc.. A 30' high foam wall, held in place by some bracing, strapping, and hog rings tying the mesh on the panels together. Well the big bad wind wolf huffed and puffed and blew out an entire wall just before it was ready for shotcrete. Whoops! Order new windows, fix up the panels and put them back in place, and only a week or two of schedule delay!

Also, on the railing, a site-built jig, cheap square steel tubing, and a cheap mig welder yielded up some pretty nice 'custom' steel deck railings. If you pay some custom steel fabricator to make them, they will cost a fortune, but a GC with even modest welding skill should be able to whack them up for very low cost.... These were just finished with an oxidizer. No expensive powder coating or tedious paint.

Yeah- I've learned that so far we've had it easy compared to others. A wall full of windows destroyed? Yeah I'd be pretty pissed. Our windows are due in the next week or two- Some are quite large- I'm hoping for no mishaps.

So the idea for deck railing that the GC came up with (he did this on the last deck he built and said it turned out pretty slick- we're going to check it out tomorrow) is posts made out of the same material as the decking. He'll cap the posts in the same material, but he'll drill horizontal holes in the posts and use black iron pipe. He said it's a unique look, and the black pipe has a tendency to "blend in" as you're looking through it or at it from a distance, giving a more open airy look. He said we could go really crazy and bring a similar look to our interior stairs. I think it's a neat idea for our style home, which is sort of a "contemporary cottage" deal. At least that's what my wife keeps calling it, and now the builder has agreed with her and is doing the same. I'm just along for the ride.

Seen that done too, it can look nice if done well. Around here though, building code requires no spaces larger than 4" and 36" high, so you would need seven horizontal pipes plus the top rail. And since deflection is a factor in the code test (basically, can the inspector jam a 4" round ball through the railing), you can't run too wide with the iron pipe so you need to have wooden posts at least every ~6'. I also don't like it if the railing pipes spin inside the wood. Makes it feel a bit unfinished to me...

Looks like the excavator is sold. There's a guy that's apparently bringing me money tomorrow. I'll miss the old girl. Saved us a lot of money.

The crew has been doing an awesome job with the roof framing. It's all sheathed, and most of it has paper on it now. It'll be weather-tight soon. Now that there are overhangs, it's really starting to take shape and we can start to see the "character" that we were so attracted to in the drawings.

If I make it out to the site this weekend I'll get some pictures.

OK, I'm out of jail from rubbing the mods down in CS&M the wrong way, go figure!

You may want to check the building codes (if there are any) and also with your insurance carrier. You'd be surprised how the home owners insurance can and will regulate your railings, if you dare ask. I mention this from my own experience. It would be a pain in the ass to build the railing you want only to find out it does not meet code or your insurance makes you change it. Better to do it once.

So, with the excavator sold you can buy a tractor now?

Good to get the roof dried in with some weather on the way for Monday.