Other bikes that should exist

I dont want a behemoth, there are enough of those to choose from now.

Kawasaki Versys 650 motor in a modern dual sport frame/chassis.
NOT the KLR's or DR's or even the DRZ's, something at least designed in this century.

I don't know about an aircooled SV650 engine. "Maybe" air/oil cooling but you'll have a bit of trouble with the rear cylinder unless they change the overall angle of the engine to be more Ducati like.

A wide ratio 6 spd is a good thing in most engines. I'm very tired of close ratio transmisions.

While I'd like good modern suspension etc. I'm not sure I want an aluminum perimeter frame, I prefer lightweight steel tube frames, or possibly an aluminum perimeter main frame with a sturdy steel tube subframe.

I'd still be very happy if they offered The Versys 650 (or other 650 twin) engine in something as good as a DRZ chassis. I don't see this as a competition bike.

My ideal spec that the mfgs don't seem to want to build....

- 450-650cc twin-cyl making 50-65 RWHP (basically Wee level of tune)
- weight in the 350-400 lb range (depending on fuel and accessories)
- 21"/18" wire wheels mounting tubeless rubber
- full double-cradle frame (below engine) for protection and proper skidplate mounting
- 7+ gallon fuel capacity
- 8-10" suspension travel
- enough fairing and wind protection for reasonable lightweight touring
- integrated soft-bag luggage option
- 34" or less seat height
- unlinked ABS brakes (no engine modes or traction control)
- excellent standard tipover protection

I don't think it would take any "new technology" to bring this bike to market, just the wherewithal to take a chance. I think Honda is the best positioned right now to do a bike like this - base it on the CB500X and call it the new Transalp.

I think the problem with this bike spec is that it would appeal to a somewhat limited market, but OTOH, the builder would have this market totally to themselves. Another issue is cost - this would be a $9-$10K bike which in the minds of many would be competing with $6500 KLRs and CB500Xs.

- Mark

What will this bike be made of to get it in at 350-400 lbs, especially with 7 gallons (what it in the world do you NEED 7 gallons for?), integrated crash protection, soft luggage option, full double cradle frame, etc?

Aren't you basically talking about a 990 Adventure with a smaller engine?

I agree with most and think it's feasible with a few adjustments.

I think it needs to be close to 650cc to have sufficient torque. You can look to the Aprilia RXV450/550 twin for the smaller displacement/higher rev option.

I think for a ~650 twin that is reliable and has sufficient oil capacity to go the distance, plus a full double cradle frame, it will be over 400 lbs for sure and I'm OK with that but not over 450 lbs. I think 425-430 lbs is a good and achievable target. I would entertain an open loop frame with no top section using the engine as a major stressed member, possibly even no bottom loop if they cast in beefy mounts for real world skid plate.

I don't see a need for more than 6 gal of fuel, especially if it's getting ~50 mpg like a Wee does. I really don't want a massive Dakar fuel tank I have to climb around on, but something the size of the KLR tank is fine. Basically give me a solid 200 mile range with at least 30 miles of reserve.

I think seat height vs suspension travel will have to be worked out, not sure where that would end up. I'd give up a little suspension travel to get a reasonable seat height. I don't see attempting to clear triples or going WOT over 3' tall whoops on this bike.

I'd like to see flexible wind protection options, basically sell it in kit form that allows you to add/remove items depending on your planned trip. Maybe start with a basic headlight shell that carries the dash panel and offer different height windscreens and possibly lower panels for leg protection if you want to bolt them on.

I hear ya on no electro mojo foo foo, just make it simple with cable control and direct braking. Make the FI easily user adjustable for pipe changes etc. I think Yamaha is already doing this on their motocross bikes. Laptop tuning rocks and I don't want to give that up.

I completely agree there's no new technology required, just adapt what's already been done on other bikes and package it correctly.

In my mind it's similar to a KTM 950 Super Enduro, only smaller, lighter?, lower and hopefully more affordable with easier servicing. We just need "honey I shrunk the 950 SE....."

A 650cc version of the 990 adventure is a reasonable way to envision it.

As to the 7-gal fuel requirement, BMW has sold boatloads of GSA's mainly on the merits of the bigger fuel tank. I ride a S10 now and even with 6 gallons, I'm always conscious of needing to watch fuel closely and make sure I don't get too deep into the woods without knowing where the next fuel station is. Frankly, I'm preplexed why folks think a 200 mile range is acceptable in a motorcycle when virtually every car in the world has 300+ miles. As to the weight penalty, its minor unless you fill the tank so why not have the option? I rode a 640 Adventure for a few years with a 7-gallon tank and had no issues with the fuel tank being intrusive or problematic. it was wonderful.

I agree that 400-lbs is an ambitious weight goal, but if BMW can produce a shaft-drive, 1200cc twin that weighs 525, there is no reason a 650cc chain-drive twin can't be down somewhere near this goal. It does take a commitment to weight control during design and the use of some higher-tech and more expensive materials. I suspect a 425-lb version of the bike I'm talking about would be $500 or so more expensive than a 475-lb version. I'm willing to pay for it. Whether others are, I don't know.

- Mark

I'd love to see a trend back to standard motorcycles rather than this you need a maga monster motor at a mega price bike to have fun on a motorcycle. For later bikes I'd love to see and buy a 400-500cc version of the TU250x. Wouldn't care single or twin.

I think if Yamaha built a 400-450cc version of the WR250R, I would be down to only having one bike for non two up rides.

Ditto in that.

I've said it before, so pardon me for repeating, but if Honda simply stroked the CRF250L engine to make it square, it would be a torque 350cc engine that would only weigh maybe an extra couple of pounds.

Also, a 500cc, sub 400lb CB500 is doable, because, hell, look at a KLX250 and go from there. It's 300lbs wet. So, the CB500 engine is only about 30lbs more. Toss in another 20lbs for stiffening the shocks and frame and you're at 350 wet. Add in some more for some small fairing and/or other conveniences and you're there. The 350 KTM Freeride engine weighs 77lbs. The CB500 engine weighs 116.

Actually, what I want is a 350-375lb CB500 Scrambler. Basically a trail bike that can go as fast as need be, but with an accessible seat height. Maybe 7" or so suspension.

KTM should build a 750cc SE. Ducati should put different wheels, a bigger tank and slightly more suspension travel on the Hypermotard(s) and/or make a smaller Multistrada that isn't so ugly.

Unfortunately, I don't have any confidence that Honda knows it ass from it's elbow. Not saying they're bad, but three different derivatives of a 500 twin? Plus the NC700. And the CBR250? C'mon, there aren't that many newbs or cheapskates out there for these to sell. Plus Honda hasn't exactly had success ($$) when they try and break the mold, ala GB500, NT650, Pacific Coast, CB-1, Rune, all great bikes (except the Rune, which just WTF?), but still were sales flops.

This. From Motorcyclist's 2006 smart money:

"the 781cc V-fours 97-horse peak is less improtant the power spread between 5000 and 10,000rpm. If you have a pulse, these four gear-driven cams pushing 16 valves at 10,500 rpm will quicken it."
​

Why oh why Honda, don't we still get this great engine? Even as a supersport tourer, my back doesn't enjoy the riding position of a VFR anymore. As an ADV style bike, with the ponies to do two-up and slabbing with ease, I realize that this won't appeal to single-trackers out there but damn, I gotta think that the crossrunner would sell like hotcakes here.

I like several of the offerings now and would consider an 800 Tiger if it was JUST ME on the bike.Two-up riding with a +size wife can get kinda hairy when your only 5'8" to start with.It almost forces me into a road bike that I feel "ok" for gravel or graded dirt riding.I need a sturdy suspension not miles of travel.

Always trade-offs with that combo

Although I did sit on a MG Stelvio with the seat in the low position and I think once me and the wife were on it I (might) be alright.

I'd have to agree. Looking at the UK price it appears it would coming around $14k, "about" right for the market but with the usual "slightly higher" Honda pricing.

This commentary from Motorcycle news 'bout sums it up I think.

MCN overall verdict rating is 4;

"The Crossrunner has already proved controversial for being passed off as a new bike when, effectively, it’s little more than a re-worked, re-styled nine-year-old VFR800 with some ‘parts bin’ equipment. But there’s no denying that, as a concept, as a two-wheeled ‘cross-over’ machine, the Crossrunner simply works. It’s one of the best, friendliest and truly versatile bikes around – anywhere. Riding it is the proof. I was certainly sceptical before I climbed on board. Within a mile it was among my best bikes of recent years."

I would be much more interested in this bike than the very confused VFR1200F they sell here now.

It seems to me Honda's product planning dept has been way out of touch with the American market for some time now. The new CB500 line up and CB1100 are a step in the right direction but they have a few other existing bikes they could bring in to fill out the gaps and perk sales.

It's been a loooong time since I've been interested in anything Honda had for sale.

The FZ09 is 414lbs wet and $7,999, a great point to start. How much weight and cost to add 3" of travel and a gallon or 2 of gas? Or how much weight can be cut by lopping off a cylinder and still having 70+HP?

Offer it naked, but with some type of a wind protection option, like a modern Vetter or something that you can put on and take off.

Make wheels swappable. Sell it with 19" and 17" combo but also offer a 21" dirt or 17" cast option for the front, and 18" dirt for the rear. Imagine being able to choose another wheel size without having to worry about axle size, caliper alignment and hub width!

People customize their bikes anyway so might as well leverage that from the get go. Some will opt for the stock version as an ADV, another for a dirty version, still another for the SM version, and some of us all 3! Truly 1 bike to do it all.

Or throw the Phazer snowmobile 500cc motor in the WR250R chasis and let the aftermarket take care of bigger tanks, wind protection and luggage options.

Like others have said.. it doesn't seem that hard.

I totally agree, I'd LOVE to see a modular "build it for your needs" style of motorcycles. Start with the basic bike and have a build checklist of items that can be bolted on, wheels, fuel tanks, seats, wind protection. Have the various items warehoused so you could buy the extra/different items if you wanted to go transformer on your bike for different roles.

How many people would love to have a second set of wheels at a reasonable price? $500 for a set of wheels complete with bearings is not unreasonable. I recently paid very close to that for a set of new cast wheels for my Moto Guzzi Stelvio so I can mount street tires on the cast wheels and dirt tires on the wire wheels.

Or maybe 2 different sized fuel tanks? I think the previously mentioned quick detach wind protection idea rocks.

Harley has made a ton of money off of this very concept. They have some of the slickest quick detach windshields (one lever ~10 seconds), luggage, backrests/pillion seats, etc. and they offer a monumental amount of optional stuff for the bikes so buyers can make their bike the way they need/want it to be. You know they make good money off the stuff so why don't the Japanese companies see this as an avenue for more profit? I see a little of it but no where near what should/could be.

I wasn't aware of the recent Phazer engine, very interesting. From the Wiki.

Yamaha released a bold new snowmobile under the Phazer name-plate for the 2007 model year. [1] The snowmobile featured a radical new design which is inspired from the YZ250F motocross bike. The new Phazer is powered by a new 80hp 499cc fuel-injected liquid-cooled four-stroke twin which makes its peak power at 11,000RPM. The engine is based on Yamaha's highly successful and dependable YZ250F dirt bike engine.

It sounds like the Sled guys are getting the cool tech stuff we're missing. I don't know if it's a EPA thing or ??? But bring it on, 80 hp from a 500cc twin makes Honda's CB500 twins look pretty lame in comparison.

We wont see any snowmobile or motocross engines in production street bikes here in America because they wont pass emissions. An SV650 engine wont fit a DR650 frame without drastic changes to the frame. Right now cruisers are what sell in the largest numbers so that is what they invest in. Id like to see a fuel injected DR650 or even a fuel injected street legal XR650R. We wont be seeing any purpose built engines just because of production costs and those 2 older engines might not pass newer emissions standards. So far the DR and KLR still do but for how long. If the economy ever gets better Honda Kawasaki and Suzuki might be willing to invest in some modern big singles but not till then will they ever consider it. A more dirt worthy Versys would only take sales away from the KLR so dont expect that to happen. A lighter cheaper midsize Tenere might be nice. Hondas NC700x engine would be nice in a frame it didnt share with a scooter.

I used to have a Sabre 700. Got it used in 91, fixed it up, painted it metallic blue, made it work well and it really, REALLY was a nice bike. It was almost dead quiet at 80mph. And the engine had plenty of power and never had to work hard. It also was much torquier than my buddy's not even close Suzuki 750. When I got the Hawk, it was a total bummer having to live with chain noise. Yes, it was kinda heavy, but sports tourers can be a little heavier, because it gives them some stability and smoothness that super light bikes don't quite have. Great for babe hauling, which I did regularly. Got stolen.

Why does the frame matter? The frame works for that design because the engine is long and leaned forward, so the frame goes around the engine instead of in front.

So the better solution is a triple version of the 500x engine with chain drive, and convert the new NC750 engine to shaft drive.