Text-only debates cannot convey all the info that comes from a good argument among friend swith beer flowing, so there is always a little misunderstanding. I already ride 95% of every event no pause. So for me this is a 5% issue, though I do feel strongly about it. In my class there are always a few spots where the ability to briefly pause is how to avoid utterly failing a section. Who wants to fail? Schrauber, my 'hat is off to you' (that is a good thing) for engaging in a debate in English. You have fluency in Finnish and German and what other languages?
Lineaway - Don't you think there are fairly easy ways to keep the all day dab out of stop allowed trials. The clock is pretty easy to use, but probably not needed at the club level to keep things moving time wise. Something informal as having the checker count to five when the rider is holding up the show, would suffice IMO.
Hardly any trials are Nationals. Hardly any trials are crowded. At club level riders are encouraged to start elsewhere than section 1, and most of us start with the group anyway, to watch, learn, socialize. So the long dab has no great role in diminishing the event. How about the opposite? Watching a stuck rider, or a brilliant one in front of the big wall, manage the moment, plan it, time it, then stick it is possibly the best theater in the sport! How does it feel to be the guy doing that? On Sunday, section 7 don't you know, there is a series of tight moves leading to a surfboard rock which either just rolls up, or drops you into a big hole. Every Arizona upperclass rider has been in that hole. Well, I arrived at the surfboard off-balance and stopped with a foot down. Planned my ride, rode my plan, see previous paragraph, and DID IT. A career-high moment in the mind of an average, anonymous rider.... took a lot more skill and nerve than doing it right in the first place (like the other two rounds, also a career high!). This is getting to be a good conversation; thanks to all.
Lazer, I`m all for hopping. I love backing up even. But the flow of the section should be there. Graydog, stopping with the foot down is a skill my mother can do. The all day dab is not riding. In fact the trials god just gave you 4 pts less than you should of had because parking the bike is a failure. ( If I cleaned it, I deserved to be way ahead of the rider parked, maybe a three pts for stopping?) But a pause balancing is something to consider good. I wish I had an answer. I would rather ride no-stop, (Itsa rules let you pause and World round rules do too.) than deal with the all day dab that any person with two legs can accomplish. The extreme solution is gate trials or a free for all for 1 second for every meter and anything goes. 10 for a failure, up to five points for dabs. That has always`s been my opinion and have not changed at all. Actually after scoring the world round last year, I am more for the world round rules. Except they have not explained the pause very well to keep the scoring more consistent. Which is the problem every time we change the rules. :huh
Is there an official definition for a pause? I agree with your opinion of the "all day dab", unfortunately those of us (myself included) that have started riding trials within the past twenty years have learned to ride that way. When I started riding Trials in the early 90s stopping with a foot down was allowed as was hopping backwards (at least at our regional events). If the long dab was prohibited tomorrow many of our club riders would have to move down a class (myself included), unless section design was slackened substantially. I'd like to see stopping with a foot down done away with but it will take a long time since many, if not most, riders have never known it any other way.
[ Well yeah -- but can your mother get started again from the wrong stopping spot? Did I set you off Bob?
No, John you did not set me off. I have hated the all day dab since it started in the indoor rounds. My mother has not ridden since she rode through a large cactus and suffered for months for the barbs to ooze out.( By the way raw bacon wraps are the cure) Ever since the old rules were changed, ( Gee I loved the rules of hopping, backing up, all while still clean. Too bad time was an issue). we have had many rule changes which all made no sense for normal club rules. Gate trials seem almost the best way to go. It is awfully cut and dry. ( I did enjoy the win) The plus side is you choose to take or break your own points! Hope we did not jump off the subject line, but it has been a good discussion!
I am with Lineaway. We are old and crusty but we know a few things. Stop Dab = no balance. no movement. You may be in a tight spot but until you get moving again you are not performing a skill. Stop dab + stalled engine = 5 The only thing preventing a 5 is keeping the engine running. 4 points. That's a huge reward for idling... something the bike can do without you. Sorry.
I think the stopped dab is a safety issue. Lots of people get out of shape momentarily. your going to 5 them? I agree, Gate trials can be alot of fun. A small tweak to the current rules is all that is needed (if anything) and would be the most palatable to the majority of riders IMO.
Well yes, that`s why it is called a failure. Not enough fives anymore. You have many riders riding a class above there ability because of this rule. That in itself is not safe. Riding safe is knowing when to pull in the clutch and take your five. The all day dab came from indoor trials and had nothing to do with safety. Just like now the new indoor sump rule, that has nothing at all to do with safety.
The Stop Dab is a good idea for Novices and Kids. For entry level classes Count only dabs, going out of bounds and tip overs.
The problem is it doesn't work that way and people will get hurt. Riders are always going to push themselves and the competitive desire to climb up usually trumps ability at somepoint. I think this is a point where you would be right, but wrong if your trying to grow the sport. Im against the sump rule for the same reason. Ask Jack Challoner about his experience with it. Besides, your just adding another subjective call. Get rid of them and we'll all be better off. KISS is a good approach to many things.
Motorcycling in general is very dangerous. If you do not know your own ability, (Which this rule creates a false sense ) then you are a danger to yourself and others. (Usually trials riders have years of experience and should know the limits.) I scored the world round last year and two days at the New Mexico National. The world round was easier hands down. The US National was hard because of the clock. We had a very long section. So anyone riding above sportsman/senior was racing the clock. Only gave a few fives for time, but 80% finished with less than 5 seconds to spare. First time I ever got stuck with a clock scoring, as it was the most critical element at the moment. By the way the rules were very simple before we added stopping, hopping and reversing. Took just a few minutes to explain to any volunteer scorer. I too know the backside to bad calls. I was at TTC at a National in `96, I had won the first day. The second day I was on 2 points with two sections to go. I dabbed going up a ledge, the nearest scorer had me on a one. When I had my card punched it was a five, the scorer replied he was the senior scorer and that was his decision. I would have protested, but I need to drive 1200 miles in the next day and a half. Thing is that has not been the worst mistake a scorer has made when I have traveled over a thousand miles. Subjective is I clean a section and the next guy parks his bike, moves both wheels(The scorer lets him move both wheels backwards six inches to keep it simple) to the best line, catches his breath and I`m only 1 point ahead of him. When being stop and hop no backing up is allowed and he did it twice!!!Fail!
Easy enough , just like the refs in basketball count when a guy stands there holding the ball. When someone is stopped and has a foot down, start counting out loud, 5,4,3,2,1...get outamysection! This isn't world trials and for 90% of us, it's not even national level. It's club trials and it needs to be fun. If you have subjective calls by inexperienced checkers (unless you have been scoring no-stop for years, you are inexperienced) it will be a cluster f&#K. edit: we usually have 10 year olds who are watching the clouds roll by for our observers. Yeah, that will work.
I hate basketball, but I like the count. Elbow up, good thump into chest, everyone can see the count. By the way Gordy, did you ask Sid about the craps table and Texas Barbeque? Just a few x-tras to make the drive worthwhile.
He just laughed and said that you guys had "done some craps". Can you imagine watching a basketball game where a guy would just pick up the ball and hold it forever?? The crowd would go nuts. DO SOMETHING!!!!! Same with trials. We have short attention spans and no one want to see someone parked (or stuck) for more than a few seconds. I say, give em a five count, then it's a five. How about something as stupid as bowling? The guy walks over to the rack, picks up a ball and then just stands there. 10 guys are waiting to bowl, but he is "thinking". Then he rolls a gutter! You can make just about any sports analogy to see how idiotic the all day dab is. Don't worry about the top classes. There are only a few riders at that level anyway and we all like to watch them ride, hop, balance whatever. It's the amateurs that drag a bike through for a three that drive me crazy. What is bad, is that if dragging a bike through a section is allowed and your completion does it.....you have to as well when you get stuck. It's maddening.
I was at an informal event where a rider was holding up the show while there were people trying to finish on time. The checker employed a unique countdown technique that was very effective. "If I finish my beer and your still there, your getting a 5 - now hurry up" He then let out a loud burp. Everyone laughed. Guy got out of the section. Simple is good. In the name of perfection, people make this crap alot harder than it needs to be and lose there audience (ridership) in the meantime.
Your last line says it all! I hate wasting my energy dragging a bike that is motorized to ride, but the `other` guy dragged it up a poorly set obstacle!
The positive side is the event flows and so do the sections if set correctly. I myself have little fun sitting at a section waiting for 45 minutes to ride. ( I realize most riders on this forum have never had this experience.) Modern trials evolved to no-stop which originally was good. Trouble is that the riders became so good that it could take twenty minutes to ride a section. The sections became the equivalent of ribbon in a parking lot. Making the ribbon the obstacles. For a first time rider or spectator there is little difference between stopping with the foot down or balancing. Same with our modern rules. Really the biggest problem with understanding the `new rules` is a good explanation of the rule to include a pause. A pause with the feet up is allowed ,but it is such a grey area. What I`m getting at is the stop and hop rules have made the sport more on the boring side. Kind of like watching basketball or hockey, a lot of action but little difference in the score at the end of the day. The all day dab, (Which came from the indoor events to give it MORE competition to the show) has ruined the point spread and has given the riders the ability to ride higher classes without the ability to do so. A false confidence of competing with better riders. It really is so boring to watch all these riders with no skill struggle all day long in a class they do not belong. Watch the good riders in any average section, without even thinking they can enter a section stop correct there approach, ride a obstacle and hit the correct spot and clean each part step by step. Now have them do it no-stop, the difference is the cannot stop and correct the mistakes they made in line choice. The positive side of no-stop is the event flows, as it is a motorsports. The sections can be laid out more naturally to the land itself. There is no more all day dab. (Real men hop without the instant kickstand for back up support) There is an honest point spread through the classes. And maybe, just maybe the top classes might come down to earth and there severity of sections. You have to almost kill the top riders to get any points out of them anymore. That is the real reason the USA has almost no top riders. It is dangerous and no money in it. And besides with no-stop there is no stop watch needed in every section! I come out to ride, I enjoy seeing another rider have a good ride. But I did not come out to sit on my tiny motorcycle seat![/QUOTE] This is the best case for no stop Ive heard yet. Reasonable.