GI's and motorcycle crashes...

First, stand strong brother! I've been toeing up to "the man" for a couple years now, with varying degrees of success. Most leadership will respect & listen to the ideas of proacive motorcyclists, but *will* knee-jerk if they don't know what else to do.

#2- Yes, it is something you can do, but it's a major PIA, and as you mentioned, hard to enforce.

#3- Sure trackdays/CLASS/etc are great, but they tend to target the audience that doesn't need the help, IMHO.

I believe that mentorship is the answer- get the newbies out there on the roads with the experienced guys. Peer pressure rocks. Of course my skin starts itching every time I hear "mandatory mentorship".... It's a fine line to walk, and you need quality committted people to pull it off.

Parting shot- I'll probably never figure out why people get their panties wadded up about those murdercycles. Remind your leadership that we're already way safer than the civilian sector, and that they're chasing perfection.

Erik
Aviano Italy

Our safety office runs the program, but that's not all we do. We are paid the same wither we run one class a month, or four + per month. If a unit needs a "cattle-call", we schedule one. If we need a class of 12, I suit up and go out there too.. Mobilizing units have scheduled their own ERC's with us before in addition to our regular schedule. If your safety office is not accomodating your needs, go do some stomping!

voluntary mentoring.?. yeah i'll be glad to help! i love the idea of infecting young impressionable riders with my own bad habits.

Rant.
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It’s just the tip of the iceberg folks. I don’t know what’s happened over the past few years but some real do-gooders have polished enough knob and made it to the top. Now they want to take away every form of legal recreation, be it physical or chemical, purely to cover their asses and make the next rank. It’s leadership by fear these days, a complete “not on my watch” attitude, without any real care or concern for the root cause. It seems no one has the balls to step up and tell it like it is, better yet, no one wants to HEAR it like it is because it means they’ll have to deal with it.<o></o>
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Yes, some GI’s that ride, crash. If it was due to reckless driving, I find it unfortunate that all their professional military training and ability to apply ORM (read common sense) wasn’t enough to keep them from wheelieing (sp?) into the back of semi. But much to our leadership’s dismay, we can’t make common sense mandatory because you can’t enforce it. I think the military has done all it can do, and needs to do, to set riders on the right path towards responsible ownership and operation. <o></o>
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The amount of “hand holding” that seems to be infiltrating the military from the fields of scoreless T-ball and helmet wearing soccer players is a bigger threat to national security than our current, Darwinesque, motorcycle problem. We make troops in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Qatar</st1lace></st1:country-region> wear reflective sashes at night, over their camouflage! I’ve seen an Admiral make an entire battle group sign a pledge not to do “shots or shooters” as they cross the brow for a liberty call. There are commands that have prohibited all high risk activities such as scuba diving, parasailing, mountain biking, skiing……where does it stop?<o></o>
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The worst part is, is that it’s becoming the norm. Now we see that first wave of children that never lost a game of T-ball coming up through the ranks. I’ve had parents, PARENTS, call me personally to discuss there son’s poor evaluation, like there’s extra credit! My friend has had a few students cry during training briefs because they weren’t prepared, college graduates, crying! I knew I was in trouble early on when the girl next to me at the pistol range starting crying and put her weapon down because it was too violent (she continued on to be a supply officer.)

Rant over

You won't like this but....

You are dealing with a group of people who are already braver than normal (they signed up) and stupider than normal (they signed up).


Basically if they weren't already prone to taking risks they wouldn't be there in the first place. That's your #1 problem - the same people who make good soldiers will also be prone to doing stupid shit when on a bike.

All I can suggest: Get them on dirt bikes, do full-on enduro riding courses - they'll still pick up more than the average share of injuries, but hopefully the death rate will drop. Pain is a great teacher.

Pete

Okay here this:

I am a certified MSF instructor since 2002. I do this because I want to, not because I have to; I don't get any promotions out of it one way or another, I'm retired from military service. I just came in from teaching an Experienced Rider Course. One would assume that an "experienced rider" can handle his/her own bike. I had two riders, on big cruisers, not any younger than 40-ish that couldn't turn the bike within a 24 foot by 70 foot rectangle! "Experienced" riders that came to class because "they had to".. took longer to stop than my Tundra, took more real estate to u-turn than my Mazda-6, and cornered slower than my Grandmother on a dark night on a country road. One of them kept blaming it on the bike "a big bike can't corner this sharp". Bullshit. Tell it to the Road King rider and the GL1200 rider that just did it fine before him..

He got 20 demerit points on the test, 21 would have been failing. We had to send him through the u-turn box twice (because he stalled it, and we gave him the benefit of the doubt).

These two (of four) "experienced" students are not the first ones to blow it out their asses in an Experienced Rider Course. There are people out there that can't ride very well, and aren't honest with themselves about it.

And they are out there sharing the road with all of you.

I've hesitated to throw my hat in the ring on this because I'm not in the Military anymore. I did my brief stint in the late eighties got out and went into Law Enforcement. I'm currently working as a DA Police Officer on a military installation in Maryland. the problem I have with these regulations is that though they are supposedly aimed at young soldiers because of the apparent dislike/disdain of motorcycles by higher ups they direcetly effect the civilian employees on these installations also. I went through the BRC in order to obtain my endorsement. I practice in parking lots when I have the time. I plan on attending the ERC this spring and then obtaining my instructors certificate. I wear ATGATT. What I don't like is someone younger than me or my age who has absolutely no experiance with motorcycles cutting and pasting figures from the internet into some report and screwing with my ride or making me out to be a second class citizen because of it. Example: Soldier was involved in accident "off post". Racked up 60k in hospital bills because some cager cut him off. Kid hadn't attended BRC. Well how did you get on post on your bike without your card he's asked. I was never asked for it he replies. Well you can guess what happens. First thing my boss (who rides also) asks for when I come into work after this is my MSF card. They started asking for it at the gates every time you came through, no matter how many times you cme through. If you didn't have it the officers were told to turn you away. a couple of poor saps that commuted from Delaware & one from Jersey had to call out for the day. They had cards, just not with them. What really pisses me off is that some of my fellow officers have never even read the DOD regulaton concerning PPE (that is until I cornered a Supv. and made him print it out and post it at the gates ). But honestly where does it end. Though I work for the military I'm not "in" the military. I'm not some snot-nosed kid trying to impress someone and neither are the other civilian riders who for the most part are just trying to save a little cash on gas. Whats going to happen when prices soar even higher and you have even more motorcycle traffic on installations? These people need to realize that a big contributing factor to motorcycle accidents is the failure of care drivers to pay attention to what the hell they're doing. Put down their starbucks and whoppers and get off of the damn phone. No amount of PPE is going to protecet you fom that stupidity. (Rant over)

Thanks for the perspective. The brass has figured out that a lot of GI's never ride on base therefore some never take a course. I don't believe a course is the ONLY (edit) road to motorcycle salvation...in fact, some studies show that the crash rates for "educated" vs. "uneducated" nearly merge after a few years riding.

I just get a little wrapped around the axle when I hear about a rider crashing in a curve and they blame speed...when it's more likely the rider simply didn't lean enough. He never got the confidence at manageable speeds (like in an ERC) and just thought what he was doing was good enough.

I think I have a rare oppurtunity to get a program started from nothing...in fact I was told to come up with my "dream" program and we'd go from there.

I sure appreciate your opinion, I wish more folks like you worked the entry points around here...I've been hassled because the guard did not see the reflectors on my bicycle pedals as I was going OUT the gate. (!!) They hold my MSF RiderCoach card up to the light like they're looking for some kind of mark...but I digress.

Thanks again for the comments!

Wow thanks for insulting my intellegence because you dont have the stomach or desire to SERVE ones country.

You are an asshat. Thank you and have a WONDERFUL day.

They aren't fighting for their or your freedom, though Uncle Sam appreciates you thinking so. Those days are long gone.

They are fighting to maintain the power elite, nothing more. [Mind you, there is some collateral benefit that trickles down onto us masses.]

I must add, the individual soldier may have it in his/her heart that he/she is first and foremost fighting for our freedoms, and for that I salute you all.

We all know statistics can lie. This one is true but ONLY if one chooses to ignore accidents per miles of operation. Then motorcycles are the hands-down winners of being more dangerous.

Agreed. Size alone will not fix any problem entirely, but it is a step in the right direction; And not only for soldiers, but everyone should be regulated in this regard, imo.

I use to take that as a given. I do not any more. Here is why:

In the 1960s, riding a motorcycle without a helmet was not so unusual, nor was riding with little or no safety gear. Did the folks then have no common sense?

Or consider the developing world where 125cc bikes are everywhere. The bikes have three, four, five, sometimes six passengers; no helmets; no safety gear; or carrying toddlers between their legs. Are these people without common sense?

I believe what we have come to deem common sense (wearing safety gear, helmets and such) is not common sense at all. We have been regulated and educated to do so, and after time it is seen as common sense despite the facts.

Just a point I had to make.

Mine said the same thing

You're right, I don't like it. That's good for an ass-kickin' in my neck of the woods

Fear not your citizenry, fear the government body that is no longer afraid of its citizens.

Past, present and future - the members of the armed forces and those that serve their country and take up arms against tyranny are the one's protecting your ability to free speech and all other forms of repression.

Uncle Sam, is the days gone by - most people join to earn college money or learn a trade. Some stay others go, all learn something like responsibility and self worth.

Do I think we are fighting the "right" war, hell no, this is a huge mistake that will cost us all dearly now and later.

There are no superpowers left, the mighty imagination has fallen, only real men and women are left. Let's let them decide what to ride and where.

I say, the military should abandon any thoughts of controlling what people do with their off-duty time unless it has a direct impact on readiness and moral.

It is obvious they have failed at improving safety with mandated road-guard vests, one and two-day parking lot rodeos, random equipment inspections before a long weekend.

So just accept that once in awhile a dumbshit will kill himself; I'd rather a dipshit killed himself at his own hands, than to take down an entire squad, platoon or company becuase he was not weeded out sooner.




Yeah, I guess you hit nerve, I had stopped believing all the smoke-n-mirrors after my first assignment, and later had it reinforced after my first hostile tour of duty. There is only one person looking out for number 1, me.

:huh

What the Hell unit were you in where you couldn't count on your m8's to catch your six?

My thought process was much much higher up the CofC.

Of course I could count on the guys at the local level.

Sort of. The technical term (at least around here) is "too fast for conditions", which sounds a lot like "speed".

If the rider was going faster than they were comfortable leaning the bike, they were still going too fast, yes?

The trick is figuring out what caused the "excessive" speed, and what to do about it. Just telling riders to "slow down" doesn't work, and nobody should be surprised about that. I strongly doubt many riders intend to find themselves going too fast- they probably thought they were just fine, right up to the point they were in trouble.

What seems to be the issue (this is from crash reports done in and around Oregon, YMMV) is insufficient visual lead. More plainly, the rider isn't looking far enough ahead/through the turn, they don't recognize the hazards in time to deal with them effectively. The hazard might be a traction hazard, or that the corner is tighter than initially thought, or even the simple fact that they can't see far enough to be able to see the traction hazard or judge the radius accurately. Either way, they plot a speed with insufficient data, and by the time they recognize it, it's too late.

As for leaning- sometimes the limiting hazard isn't the available traction- sometimes the limit is between the rider's ears. They need to recognize their own performance limitations and operate the motorcycle accordingly, including leaving some safety margin that's inside their comfort zone. To do so, they need to know what they're going to have to do to get around the next corner... which comes back to looking through the turn.

In which case, someone should help them understand that if those are their limits, they need to ride accordingly.

On mentoring new riders- good idea. Put them with someone who has more experience can help.

The question then simplifies (ha!) to training riders to be effective mentors.

David Hough and I have spoken at length about this - more so about general riding skills, than something specific to military members. The problem is this, what might make a good rider - knowledge and experience, but if he (or she) is not a very good communicator or understands the physics, then his skills are lost or poorly enterpreted. (Edit: Not to be taken as a derogatory statement just old facts: If you teamed up some young riders with a crusty old bastard who rode H-Ds his whole life he might make a statment like this, "Don't touch the front brake, it will cause you to crash", we know that is flat ass wrong, but still to this day, some rider's believe that.)

Something like the "Rider's Workshop" is a better format, where a qualified or experienced teacher (Rider Coach) takes several riders out for a day or weekend camp on known roads and works with them indiviually to imporve their riding.

Whatever there is there also needs to be an incentive to do it, or spend the money to go. Right now the insurance companies are not interested in giving someone with better training a bigger break, and I can't think of any other long term incentives that would make learning better.

Until the MSF stops being the only game in town as an accredited or certifying course, this will not happen.

If there is incentive to take something like a Lee Parks "Total Control" class or Reg Pridmore's Advanced Rider Course (ARC) and that comes with finacial savings, no one is going to spend the money, unless they would anyway.

The Army is sometimes big on supporting activities that are like-in-kind to military service, discounts on equipment or lessons for sky diving if assigned to a military free fall unit, or scuba diving classes, but for the life of me I don't see riding as a benefit to military service.

Maybe with $4.00/gal gas, that might change in the future, as more and more service members take up riding and the death toll rises.

Just my .02

it would be interesting to have a look see at the marines riding programe for the fabled klr deisel troopers. there might be some "good stuff" in it, maybe , maybe not