Riding Over Mt Everest?

there are two should I say "main" overland routes from Europe to India. Most common is Turkey-Iran-Pakistan-India. There may be the problem with Iranian visa. The other is Kyrgyzstan-China-Pakistan-India. So for both you need the Pakistani visa. For that latter one, you also need to arrange entry to China, but it's a relatively short way inside China, so costs may be more tolerable. The Karakoram Highway is on that route, it is a famous destination in itself. And you naturally will need to cross some very high mountain roads on that route, so weather, especially winter, needs to be thought of. Eastern Turkey also gets too cold for bikes mid-winter, but otherwise that route is pretty much year-round. Summertime heat, as well as the monsoon season has to be taken into account further south.

Edit. Turkey-Georgia-Russia is another bit, that'll demand some more research... I think it should be do-able these days, though, but you should be aware of where&how. You also have the option to go by ferry across the Caspian Sea.

Vietnam is nowhere as expensive as China to get a bike into.

I know of five different people who have taken bikes from 200cc to 650cc there in the past year and they all paid about $600.

Ok I admit my info on Vietnam could be outdated. Once went with friends to try it on 115cc scooters (Thai plates) from Cambo & Laos, and failed to get in. We weren't prepared to pay a lot of 'baksheesh' for entry, though. At that time (2006) there was a persistent rumour, that under 175cc is okay, that's why we went with those scooters. I thought language barrier at their borders was substantial..

Legally, under 175cc IS o.k- but in practice they haven't let cambo bikes under 175cc in for years unless you pay the fee to a tour guide.

Simply out of interest, is this only not possible solo on a bike? I haven't read many Africa Ride Reports, but I assume it can be done with a guide of some sort?

Indeed, a helluva trip, I.W.R.O.M :)

Sure, anything is possible. You'll just need to be a millionaire to arrange a convoy with serious desert-prepped vehicles carrying your water, food and fuel... as well as army-level protection for certain areas! That still leaves the problem of not seriously pissing off the relevant governments with such entourage, getting permits & crossing certain borders (repeat:Alg-Morocco is closed)... but yeah, one cannot say, that it is impossible in itself

edit. But crossing east to west somewhere south side of the Sahara, where there are actually some roads, might already change the game a bit.

But I'm just talking outta my #ss on this subject really. Better to check out this link (...and it's fair to say he actually knows what he's talking about):
http://www.sahara-overland.com/routes/routesmap.htm

My knowledge of those countries and their attractions is nil. What do you recommend?

Yep. You're correct. I had done basically no research on the area.

Vietnam... maybe I'll skip it, but still haven't done significant research on the country. Jaci-Kampuchea's response is good to hear, but $600 to get into 'Nam seems high. Still just trying to get a decent potential route then working out large issues (China) down to smaller ones. Everything is flexible.

The seasons... I'm thinking a February or Mach departure from Melbourne. Assuming 6-9 months for the trip, I should be riding into generally nonextreme weather in that time frame.

Another good option. Cheers!

That guys site is pretty durn good. His routes are and details are the kind of things I really dig. Thanks!

I've updated the potential route for Africa. I am open to entering the continent at a different place, but must go to Johannesburg, South Africa and Kampala, Uganda. Maybe it's better to cross at Cameroon to Uganda, then down to South Africa. Thoughts?

Edit: This potential Africa route is about 21,000 km.



And yes. This would be one HELLUVA trip indeed.

Keep in mind, that I´m not an expert on this (in fact I´ve only travelled some southern parts of Africa, and that was over a decade ago, a lot has changed since)... But it is my understanding, that for most people – think 99% of the people! – it is either ´western´ or ´eastern´ route, though both have some variations.

What is definitely NOT common these days, is to combine those routes in the middle (to go from Cameroun to CAR or northern DRC, and then to Uganda, for example. I think there may be good reasons, why most people don´t do it. Like VERY poor roads (especially during the rainy season), terrible paperwork & corrupt officials. And generally those areas are not known for their stability or well-being, in fact often quite the contrary, so even your safety might be at risk. That is probably the biggest reason, why that route is generally not considered feasible.

And basically the same goes for countries located between Senegal and Ghana, so over there the most common route goes inland, via Bamako.

Personally I think I would just simply stay out (not from whole of Africa, but those areas mentioned above). If it´s your first trip to Africa, cutting west to east in the middle would really be jumping in the deep end. So if you´re still gonna do it, then I´d advice to do your homework really well!

I think that ´western´ route thru Africa (around the equatorial region) is about as tough as it gets already, even if you weren´t planning any major deviations from it!

6-9 months is very quick.

Keep in mind daily averages. Personally I don't go above 150km per day average. That for me allows time to see the sights along the way and get to know people. If I had time I would go even slower. At 150k's per day average you can afford to get sick and then make up the time later on. You don't have to make huge sacrifices about seeing things, and you can afford to take the occasional detour to see things.

Keep in mind that even in most parts of Eastern Europe it can take 4 hours to ride 250km because there are no decent highways. I think that will only be worse in Asia/Africa.

You are going to start to get fatigued after 1-3 months. Most people I have met on extended trips said they went too fast at the start and then they just hit a wall. After that they had to slow down. Riding for that long a period of time is a lifestyle, not holiday. That is really important to remember. Healthy food is hard to find on the road, and with the lack of routine with riding across continents it can be very hard to find time to exercise. Over 6 months or so this starts to take its toll.

Here´s a tip: get Chris Scott´s “Adventure Motorcycling Handbook”. The same guy, who has that Sahara-website, so as you´d already seen, he knows his stuff. There you´ll have some general descriptions of the routes you´re thinking, and also info about the best & worst seasons for different areas (among many other things related to this type of travel!) I think there should be a new, revised edition of that book out just about now, or this year anyway.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/travel-hints-and-tips/best-tips-fast-travel-many-66377#post394348

Here is a link to a thread on the HUBB where a guy has written up a bit on daily averages... seems a fair few people tend to recommend going over 200-250 k's per day.

my RTW plans changed dramatically earlier this year, i was planning for 2013 in Africa, after spending some time with Chris Scott personally, all his advise was avoid west africa, mainly french speaking areas for the near future, and now there are new problems in the north east and arab states, i would research this area very carefully, and be aware that things can change on a daily basis, sometimes hourly.

i lived in Kenya and Morocco so have hands on experience with Africa

also you may want to read this ride report - http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710660 they just went around africa, some days only managing single digit KM days, it took them almost a year

also you don't mention a Carnet at all unless i missed it, this all needs to be calculated in to your travel costs

on a brighter note look into the Isle of Man TT races if you are into motorcycles this is a must see event in early English summer

6-9 months for Trans-Africa AND Europe to Australia is too short IMO. Doesn't mean it could not be done, just saying that personally I would get more time, or cut the trip shorter.

My Europe to Oz trip was 6 months, 34 thousand road kms, and I remember thinking that 8-9 months for that route would have been perfect for me. (note, that this trip was 180 kms per each day on average - and roads were not so bad generally).

Hello everyone. Sorry I've been away for a while. I'm back more or less now.

First. Thank you to everyone for helping so far!

Second. Bike. I just got a 1997 DR350SE that will hopefully be sufficient for the trip after various modifications. Also I need to learn how to do a bunch of maintenance and repairs in case I'm stuck in the boonies and need to fix the bike. Not to mention learning how to ride! Just got my permit a week ago!


Third. Route Research. I've done more research and am cutting Africa out of the trip. I think the board is correct in saying I plan on doing all of that too quickly. I'm hoping to do Melbourne to Madrid, ~43,400 kms, in about 5 months which works out to ~290 kms/day. That's probably fast for Bali to Turkey, but I think Turkey to Madrid, as well as Australia will be significantly faster thus averaging out.


Forth. Budgeting. I think $40/day is adequate for daily travel expenses. That works out to U$6,000 for 150 days. I plan on camping a lot and being frugal. Also there are five planned plane/boat rides (in yellow on the map) plus shipping the bike (~U$9,000), a carnet (~U$400?), border fees ($U1,000?), repairs/parts ($1000?), etc. for a grand total of $17,400. Does that sound appropriate?

Fifth. Departure date. I think I should leave from Melbourne in early February (of 2015 in case you were wondering). The wether there should be in the 50F - 75F range and that should theoretically put me in Scandinavia in May/June where the weather should be in the 40F - 70F range. The places in between should be shifting seasons into nicer temperatures as I go through them. Does that sound ok? Did I miss something on this part?

Feel free to add any suggestions you have. I'm all ears!

The DR650 is a proven overlander.

Your route looks mostly do-able... though I´ve never heard anybody shipping vehicles out of Vietnam (except those who have worked there maybe). And shipping to somewhere in Central Asia from North India, that could be a tall order. Probably will be less headache, and in the end cheaper, too, to ride to Pakistan, head north, and arrange the guide to get into China, and then cross to Kyrgyzstan overland.

The other option to go overland between India and Europe is to head west across Pakistan, and cross into Iran. That one does not necessitate you to get your vehicle into China, but visa issues, and security situation in western Pakistan could be the stumbling blocks (at least right now, but if you set off in -15, then it could be very different).

290 kms ON AVERAGE is tough in my view. Especially in Asia. And shippings, bordercrossings, applying for visas etc., tend to take some time no matter how smoothly everything goes. It may be do-able in Oz or Europe, but will be pushing it in most parts of Asia. Besides, there´s a million things to see & do along the way, not a good idea to be in a hurry (and to do 290/day every day start to finish, you WILL be in a hurry).

Forth. Budgeting. I think $40/day is adequate for daily travel expenses. That works out to U$6,000 for 150 days. I plan on camping a lot and being frugal. Also there are five planned plane/boat rides (in yellow on the map) plus shipping the bike (~U$9,000), a carnet (~U$400?), border fees ($U1,000?), repairs/parts ($1000?), etc. for a grand total of $17,400. Does that sound

Feel free to add any suggestions you have. I'm all ears!

You are smoking some good stuff if you think 17400 is going to cover. Fuel alone is going to cost you $8+ gallon and a friend past just short of $20/gal in several places in remote Africa...you can only haul so much fuel and you have to pay whatever they want to charge you. Add in payments (extortion) to border agents, local police, flying in needed repairs, dont see anything listed for your airfare, etc, etc. Realist budget without doing all the math $40000-50000.

Normally costs depend very much on the region. Much of Asia, particularly the south and southeast, are dirt cheap compared to Europe or Oz. Spend most of the time there, but just fast forward across Europe & Oz following the shortest possible route would be my plan to keep the costs down. Shipping is another important area, where you can spend or save money, so do your homework well, it'll be worth it.

Please do not pay attention to the last post by the noob. His adverse statement of a necessary $40k-$50k budget is absolutely ludicrous. (NEUB)

Like Pecha72 has said above me, in my travel experience I have earmarked budgets per time spent in local regions. I.E. Alaska/Canada is more expensive then the mainland US, which is more expensive than Mexico, which is is more expensive then Central America, so on and so forth. More time spent in expensive places = higher daily budget and vice versa.

Dig deep and get into the research as much as possible. Obviously you are well over a year away from your stated departure date (which you moved back a bit already?) and thus have time to read and read and read. Temps in February in Melbourne are generaly higher than 75F. Thats the end of summer here in Australia. But that's irrelevant.

Camp your ass off, and you'll keep your costs low. Buy your food at grocery stores and markets, and never pay for a cooked meal, and you'll keep your costs low. Sleep in new friends homes, on floors, couches, etc, and you'll keep your costs down. Things you can't change are A) the price of fuel, B) The cost of food C) Weather.

Fuel in Australia is around $1.40/liter at the moment. i.e $5.35/gallon. Turkey= $10/gallon. I've got no idea about Indonesia, any parts of Asia, or the rest of Europe, but you can plan on damn near doubling your fuel costs in Europe as compared to the US. Food is expensive in many places, cheap in others. Save when you can, spend when you have to. Weather, like it or not, will impact your travel plans, planned destinations for the days travel, likelyhood of camping (pissing rain somewhere in Asia? 100*F heat in Australia).

Your bike will get around 55-60mpg (don't be optomistic about fuel consumption, plan for the worst man, it will save you time and money). You'll be loaded with gear even though you'll travel lightly. If you do 290kms (call it 300km or 180miles) a day, you're burning 3 gallons of gas at 60mpg. $16/day in Australia. $30/day in Turkey. Trying to feed yourself and cover misc. things on $24/day in Australia will be tough as nails. Nigh impossible on $10/day in Turkey. IF you can find a free place to sleep.... maybel you'll be inside your budget...

Shipping your bike to Australia will cost you more than you expect. Shipping from the west coast of the US to Sydney/Melbourne/Adelaide/Perth (doesn't really matter) will cost you roughly $600-$1000 JUST TO LEAVE THE US. Wharf fees, Customs fees, AQIS (Australian Quarintine) Fees, Cleaning fees will cost you another $1000+- on the Australian side. You can do it cheaper, but time is your enemy, you might have to wait a few months for the right shipment to leave the states that can add your bike for cheap, and save you money. How do I know? I manage an Australian based import company that imports US boats/campers/motorcycles, etc. So, roughly $1500 to get your bike to Australia. $1200 for a one way ticket from the east coast. You're at $2500 already. I don't know what the rest of your flights will cost ($400-$500?) or the ferries. You'll have to figure that out.

Do your research on the Carnet, it'll easily cost you a thousand dollars ($1,000). You've got a cheap bike, which will lower the deposit required, but it's still not cheap.

Your border fees estimate is probably pretty close. Australia won't cost you any money, but I'm not sure about the rest. You won't be paying much in Europe, but the "Stans", Russia, Georgia, Turkey, will stick you for some bucks to be certain. Your map shows you entering Pakistan? Did you find an easy way to get a Pakistani visa? If so, tell me, I want to know (for real, I want to know).

If you don't crash, you won't have much repairing to do to your DR350. Very reliable, air cooled, bikes. Start with a clean, well prepared bike, and you'll end with a well used, still in good shape, well prepared bike. However, you're planning on over 26k miles. That's a LEAST 3, probably 4 rear tires. And at LEAST 3 front tires. You'll be paying $100 for each of those 6 tires (AT LEAST). You'll have 8 oil changes at 3k mile intervals. 4 oil filters if you skimp and only switch every other. You'll have to buy a chain half way through, or near the end at least. That's an easy $1000 all said; tires, oil, filters, chain. Probably closer to $1,500 in all honesty.

Lets add it up:

26k mile at 60mpg = 433gallons x $5/gl avg= $2,156 (really, it'll be more like $2,700) (http://www.kshitij.com/research/petrol.shtml)

Food for 150 days = $17/day (you gotta eat man and Australia/Europe ain't Cheap. You can't stay in India forever!) = $2550

Consumable parts / Maintenance = 4 rear tires, 3 front tires, a chain, 16 quarts of oil, 4 filters, and other miscellaneous expenses =$1,200 (DON'T CRASH!)

Carnet = $1500

Shipping to Aus with one way plane ticket = $2500 (likely won't be cheaper).

Border fees = $1500 (have you included your visa fees also? Pakistan, Russia, the other Stans, Turkey, etc.)

Other shipping costs $6500. (as per your estimate)

Where are we now? Oh. $17,900.

It seems like you've landed pretty well on the mark. You might even come out under this proposed budget if you save on shipping costs/flights. However, this does not lead ANY room in the budget for incidentals or tourist activities, or alcohol, or meals out with friends. This doesn't cover any new clothing on the trip. Replacement costs for any items lost or stolen. What if your camera breaks dude. You will definitely want a new one. You haven't taken into consideration your motorcycle gear either. Boots, Pants, Jacket, Gloves Helmet. ATGATT. All the gear all the time. Is that in your budget, or is that a pre trip expense not to be considered for these purposes? Your new to you DR350 will make the trip without a hassle. Buy a 4gallon Clarke tank, hand guards, a new seat, and some throw over soft luggage, and you'll be fine.

I rode 8 months, from Seattle to Argentina. My average was 100mile a day WHEN I was riding. 160km/day. Your average of 290km/day is going to kick your ass and take your name (unless your ruthless, in which case it won't matter at all). Remember, you can sit in India somewhere for a week and spend less than $70 and ride nowhere at all. That same week in Australia will cost you $500+ Are you on a strict timeframe? If not, why not travel until the money runs out instead? I'd be looking at 7 months time.

In fact, I am planning 9-12 months for the same journey. Australia to Europe. After 3 months in Australia ramming around. And another 3 months to descend into Africa (if I feel like it).

Hauling ass costs more money. The slower you go, the cheaper it is.

--Alex

+ 1 to the above, good calculations

Neub...you must be travelling in a rolls royce with a butler in tow...you obviously don't get out much and have friends who like the high life and pay over the odds for everything - $20 for gas...here's a report from two years ago i dont think gas has increased by over 100% anywhere on this list LINK but maybe you know better

as for shipping look into riding in Thailand and flying out of Bangkok to Kathmandu Nepal...its a standard route, used by loads of people and costs about $1250 - link

Surely someone has shipped a bike out Ha Noi to Kathmandu? If it proves to be impossible I might decide to reroute the Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam area some how to end up in Bangkok to fly to Kathmandu (as rtwpaul suggested). Maybe make a circle of the area.

I hear you about the daily averages. I'd like to see as much as possible, but I don't want to just rush through everything. I want to see the people and explore and absorb the cultures. Not just cruse through as fast as possible. I'll be learning more as I ride more and gain experience. Perhaps I'll change the route again.

I actually am not sure how much time I plan on spending in Europe. I assume because of road quality as well as a general sense of hustle from the locals (at least compared to some other countries), things will generally work decently and pretty much on schedule. Not everywhere obviously, but in general Europe is more cognizant of time than say India. That said, I assume it'll be easier to get daily activities done and travel faster.

You're correct. I have moved it back. I'd be riding right into the European winter by leaving in June/July 2014 and also probably not have enough experience and money saved. As long as the temps aren't freezing I'll probably be ok. I used to live in Arizona and Nicaragua and it gets hot both places to say the least.

I absolutely plan on camping, camping, camping. And eating cheaply. Except for splurging on good local cuisine occasionally. But none or limited fast-food type meals.

Those are good calculations to have in my head... breaking it down like that. As you camp... $24 a day in Oz is definitely doable. A couple of years ago I went to Japan and spent $600 in 14 days including ~$20/night on hostels... so $22/day for food, misc, touristy stuff, etc. And Japan is expensive. I'm pretty confident I can eat cheaply, but I don't want to kid myself on expenses and be caught off guard. More research yet!

That's actually exactly what I budget to get to Australia as well. $2500. I could save I'm sure if I got lucky on prices, but I'm not counting on that.

I just tried tonight and didn't find too much about it. AAA referred to the Canadian site and I don't think a Canadian Carnet is what I need. I'm from the US. I could be wrong. More research again needed. Thoughts here? Can I use a carnet from Canadian authorities? I feel like this should be procured by officials from one's own country.

Sadly, I'm not planning on entering Pakistan. I was planning on flying from Leh, India (in Jammu and Kashmir) to Dushanbe, Tajikistan, but upon closer inspection there are no flights from Leh to Dushanbe. At least not currently. This puts a crimp in things until a solution is found. More research needed. I really want to see Jammu and Kashmir, but I don't want to ride up there and then have to ride back to New Delhi for a flight. Thoughts?

All of the bike upgrades will be done prior to leaving and aren't being added to the actual traveling budget. Nor is gear. But things will break so I need to add some $$'s to that area. Broken camera? Empty wallet. lol

I plan on being ruthless for Australia and most of Europe. Long days - like 8 hours of riding. I'll have a Corbin seat. And be ruthless. I'm not on a strict timeframe, but 5 months will be a big test. I have a real estate business that runs itself pretty well. Just went to South Africa for 5 weeks with basically zero problems back home. No motorcycle in SA though. But by then, it should be bigger and managed by other people making it theoretically easier to be gone for longer periods.

Alex. Your post was so awesome. I'm shocked honestly. Thanks man!