Time to grow my moustache, the garage smells like Guzzi.

I'd take a real close look at the rear main seal and/or pump cover (if there is one on the back of a Guzzi like there is on a BMW). These are usually the sources of oil leaks that end of contaminating the clutch disk.

IF the clutch disk has been contaminated with oil and/or grease, I'd toss it and get a new one and not look back.

There is alot of crud in that clutch housing - something was definitely not happy there - you might find weak springs or other parts are worn that resulted in so much chewed up material..

Neat project- keep the faith!!

The oil pump is on the front, inside of the timing cover. Most likely reason for oily clutch plates is leaky clutch pushrod seals. The original is just a plastic sleeve and really doesn't work all that well.

Some helpful links:
http://thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/...engine.htm#gtb_engine_out__check_these_things

http://thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/....htm#gtb_transmission_out__check_these_things

Thanks for the links, those will be very helpful. This makes a lot of sense to me:

"There is another major source of oil which can get into the bell housing and wreck your clutch that no one ever seems to mention. It's the two holes in the top of the crankcase for the breather tube and oil return line. Any oil that gets on top of the motor from a variety of sources can leak down those holes because no grommet or seal is used there and the metal tubes are much smaller than the holes they go through. Also, the short connecting rubber hoses fit over the fittings on the engine breather and the tubing going into the bell housing, so any deterioration of the hoses or loosening of the hose clamps allows a leak there. The tubes are then a direct path for the oil to run into the bell housing."

Both of my lines to the breather were pretty deteriorated, so I'm guessing a lot of oil came in through there. That'll be something to look at or seal on the build back up. Also, the JB Weld on the cam plug is interesting.

Lot's to absorb here. I'm trying to go slow so I can take it all in, but there's a lot to remember here. Lately I've been studying the parts diagram and the rebuild guides with my free time just to combat my overwhelmedness.

Oh yeah, I'm sure it's that too. It definitely has a distinctive odor...sort of an odd smell.

I do know that oil was POURING out of the breather feed lines, so I'm inclined to think it was a contributing factor. After my one ride, the top of the tranny was totally pooled with motor oil. Eesh.

So where can I get new pushrod seals? I got the seal, gasket, oring kit from MG Cycle, but those are different seals right?

I realize that you're way into this, money wise, but I successfully rescued a gear oil soaked clutch disk by soaking it in gasoline for a few days, and then setting it on fire for a brief period to burn out the oil. Actually, I burned it, smothered it out after 30 sec or so then re-lit it a few times so that I wouldn't overheat it. That was a couple of years ago on my BMW, and it is still working fine. It had been slipping before the burn-out. I'd never do it if I was working o someone else's bike, but on my own, I figured it was worth a try.

Brake cleaner works just fine on clutch disks and brake shoes, without the need to set it all on fire:eek1:eek1:eek1

Yeah, but i kinda liked the fire part.

Yeah, the stock seals are two or maybe three little cone shaped things that go around the pushrod. Lots of people just use o-rings. I think MGcycle has either option available. I did this last winter on my T3, and the funny thing is...... I can't remember which I used! Jeeze I'm only 41, and it's already setting in.

I learned the hard way long ago not to skimp on anything in the clutch. I never reuse oil soaked clutch plates. Nothing worse than having to tear a customer's bike half the way back apart because the clutch slips...

MG Cycle and Harper's only sell the cones which were the latest upgrade from Guzzi. I've still had leaks using them, so have been using the o-ring "stack" mentioned in Guzziology. Moto International sells the o-rings or I will send anyone that wants some six of them for FREE. I buy them in bags of 100 from McMaster-Carr.

Well, it's hard to beat that price! Sign me up. I'll shoot you a PM.

This is my favorite ever. I've used fire to seat a tire, but saving a clutch is a new one on me.

I think that realistically I could salvage the discs with some resurfacing and brake cleaner, but after some consideration I've decided to replace. I'm enjoying the rebuild, but I don't want to do it again anytime soon. And besides, part of the idea of this build was to have something that, while not a show bike, is damn near as new as a 40 year old bike can be. Scrimping on clutch plates would be out of line with that goal.

I put together a wish list on MG Cycle that includes clutch, exhaust, and Gilardoni jugs and right now its sitting just under $1500. Oy.

Who needs a drink?

Oh, I totally realize that scrimping on clutch disks was perhaps not the best idea, but I just couldn't help myself, as is often the case. So far so good.

Necessity is the mother of invention. . . very funny

Well, I didn't quite get to the engine yesterday. Instead I ended up on a unexpectedly long mtn bike ride and today my ass is killing me. I guess that's what I get for only riding like 5 times all summer.

Today I had work to do, but it left a few hours in the afternoon for the engine. I love days like that.

First off, I pulled the flywheel and found another fine mess behind.





It's really not terrible, just caked with oil and crud and god knows what. From all the crap around the breathers, I'm still thinking that a goodly amount of this mess from there. I'll make sure to seal up those gaps on the rebuild:





I didn't see this is the parts manual, but since it was here, I'm going to catalog it an reinstall as it was before:




That's a big chunk of wood! What the hell? It seems to be about 3/4 of a plug cut out by a hole saw. Why it's in the bell housing, I'll never know...:huh

Rear main and crank come out:




Now I understand the 'bucket' comments about the engine block:




And finally I'm left with a genuine, honest to pete stripped engine block. Well, I guess the cylinder pins are still there, but I'm not planning on pulling those. Progress!





And here's a closer shot of the starter ring. There definitely was a pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the bell housing that used to be attached in these parts:




Experts opinion? Is this thing toast or does it live to fight another day? With proper shimming, it shouldn't be a problem to get the starter to throw farther before it powers up, but your opinions are welcome.

Now I guess I'll check my tolerances and see what goes in the trash and what goes back into the box.

Alright, now I have a few random questions in no particular order that I'd be interested in general opinions on. Feel free to laugh, ignore, or respond.

1. First is a big one: the clutch. I assume that if I'm replacing discs I need to do friction plates as well? If that's the case (and it turns out that I need a new starter ring), I'm looking at $540 for the new clutch. OR I can get a RAM clutch for $600. Worth the money? Would this clutch make all of my wildest dreams come true?

2. Another big one: cylinder kits. Is the big bore kit worth the extra cash? I get nervous when I see that it requires 'slight material removal from the push rod tunnel'. Since I'm doing Gilardonis anyway I'll need to have the crank balanced, but I think the big bore would really need to blow my mind to justify the expense. Mostly I say that because I was perfectly happy with the strength of the bike as stock. Any experience either way? MG Cycle has both in stock right now.

3. Any best practices for engine block cleaning and old gasket removal? I'm not going anywhere near the seat surface with a brush or scraper. Mostly I assume this will just be a lot of elbow grease and a few cans of degreaser, but if there are any good tricks out there, I'm all ears. Power washer at the car wash?

4. Minor question, but Schnorr vs standard lock washers? Are the Schnorrs necessary or just recommended? Mostly I'm just curious on this one.


Thanks for all the input guys, this has been invaluable so far!

If it were me, I'd soak the ring gear in gasoline and set fire to it. No, actually I'd take 15 minutes and file the burrs off of it and keep using it. That's what I did on mine, and it works fine, probably would have even if I left it alone.

I had a 74 850cc California and a 72 1000cc Eldorado (cast iron big bore kit) at the same time. Of the two engines, the 850 was the sweeter, with no significant difference in grunt or speed - just smoother all around.

Of course, after 40 years of abuse to both motors there could be any number of reasons for that, but that was my experience.

Nick

All the ring gears I've seen on Guzzi look pretty worn...clean it up and use it...
About the wood piece...I'm gonna guess it was used to plug the bottom hole between the engine and trans....then they used the timing hole to put some cleaner(mineral spirits most likely) and ran the engine to clean the clutch plates...then pulled the wood plug and drained out the gunk....yes you can ask me how I know

My opinions, worth exactly what you paid for them:

1. Replace the friction discs since they're oil soaked. The pressure plate usually doesn't need to be replaced unless it's scored badly. The intermediate plate should be checked carefully for "coning" and warping. New ones aren't that expensive. Replace the clutch springs, they're cheap.

I'm not sold on the RAM clutch assembly. I know of several that only lasted a few thousand miles. Plus, I feel part of a Loopframe Guzzi's charm is the heavy flywheel and the "low enertia" unit dilutes that.

2. Big bore will give slightly more torque, but little more horsepower without further mods (bigger carbs, different cam, free flowing exhaust). If you use the Gilardoni 88mm "big bore" kits, the crank should really be rebalanced, otherwise you'll have slightly more vibration. If you use the Cycle Garden big bore kits, you won't need to rebalance, but they're quite a bit more expensive ($1350).

3. There are purpose made chemical gasket removers, but I find "Aircraft Remover" paint stripper works just as well. It will take several applications and some light scraping to get it all off.

Degreasing: parts cleaner (or large plastic tub) with Varsol/Stoddard Solvent/mineral spirits or Purple Power. After that, an aluminum cleaner and brightener such as Zep-A-Lume (if you can find it), EZ Brite aluminum trailer cleaner concentrate diluted 50/50 with water or Eagle 1 Mag Wheel Cleaner. Usually some scrubbing is involved and lots of rinsing is definitely necessary. Hot water at the quarter car-wash would be best. Do wear proper safety gear (chemical gloves, goggles, etc.) as it's all nasty stuff.

4. Schnoor washers have their place, but on aluminum castings isn't one of them. For flywheel bolts, yes. On the bolts securing the main bearing flanges for instance? No. I use DIN 137 wave washers there along with a coating of Hondabond 4 on the threads of the bolts as a low strength thread locker.

I too prefer the 2mm original style, but the 4mm is actually cheaper.

2mm: $103.00: http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=432

4mm: $74.88: http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=1163

Little difference in the cost of 2mm vs. 4mm clutch plates also.