I wanted to continue to discuss with mr twin-shock, without everyone getting pissy that we're having a discussion, which also CAN mean we might not agree... But it is FUN to aree or even to disagree... I ask you (TS) why wouldnt the Montessa, with same mods, not still be a better bike than the Reflux? I was only a teen, but still I rode the montessas most of my early trials career... on 74 model 123's, a 76 172, and I got to test ride (when it would run) several 80's flavors 348 & 9's. until xfering my arse to Bultaco, which was quintasentialy (how do you spell that?) outdated by Fantic quite quickly, which was ligher and more trialsable... Yet even them fantic bikes had some reported "failures" like bent and broken frames, where engineering didnt always equal real life stresses from the "big dogs" of trials, (aka best Experts and masters, even in the USA). My cousin (Albert Wing) bought it new, and even rode master on this thing and nationals, the bike (there is a thread with pictures of the bike today) still is pristine condition. I just cant believe what a bike it seems to have been, now that I have it. Anywho, We did a lot of mods to try to keep the old buls competitive though, but not trying to toot my own horn, honestly! I feel since I managed to trudge onward with the 79 Bultaco for many years into and past 84, I would have ridden 3x better with same skills I had, if I was mounted on the fantic. just that much more suited to the task, IMHO.
Old Spanish bikes are mostly heavy, cumbersome, and unreliable in comparison to a Honda. The Honda in standard form though is pretty much a dead duck in terms of serious TS competition, but can be improved enormously by a few simple mods its quite possible to do at home. A modified TLR is reliable, fun to ride, with good spares availability, and can easily cope with any type of section likely to be set for TS bikes. Spanish bikes too can be improved a great deal, but as they are so far away from being competitive in the first place this is far more involved than altering the little Honda's. There is a thriving industry in Spain modifying Bult, Mont, Ossa, but in terms of cost one of these costs around £8K, and is still a long way from being anywhere near as good as any one of the top bikes being used in the UK twin-shock championship currently.
The Honda Reflex is a nice bike, it's a four stroke but I don't see any advantage between a Reflex to any Spanish brand that whee build in the same years. And to top that statement, even the last Bultaco's where better then a Reflex trials bike. It would be something different if you would compare it to a Honda TLR 200 RS or even a TLR 250. It was fact that back then no one did like the Hondas much. <EXPECIALLY p money less much for sold got they before tires flattend had them of most good, very not Germany in least at where Reflex Honda The trials. clubmen or regional riders by sometimes up, showed tehy when used rarly were Hondas- the - They, gear. street full with six-spped T340 Sherpa last weight is which 95kg above still tank dry and components legal stret any without made, bike trials theheaviest ws .<> Maybe therefore there still so many of them in a good shape around. Yes it is right many twinshock bikes get modified, but this is mostly done as the use of the bike and the riding style together with the sectipns have changed a lot since then. Not only Spanish machines are modded, Fantic's SWM's and of course Yamaha's were nowadays adapted to the riding needs of today. I personal would not do any changes that are irreversible like changing footpeg positions, changing the steering axis angle, ... but it's up to the owner /rider, ... The Problem with the old Spanish (Bultaco, Ossa and Montesa) or italian trials bikes (SWM, Gori, Italjet), is that they are not so well designed for heavy clutch action you have to ride them not hop around. Through long sections with rough terrain (filled with stones in different síze f. e.) there the old bikes are perfect, 2nd, throttle and they go through it, as with very soft and slippery or ground or where you have deep sand sections. How would you otherwise explain the absence of these Honda's in trials section when they where brand new?
None of the TLR Honda's are proper trials bikes, and back in the day when new, they were never very popular, as the first mono-shock bikes were just starting to appear, and the 200/240 Fantic's were so far ahead of any other TS bike, the Honda never sold that well. The Fantic's are still pretty much the bikes to have if you are serious about TS trials, and with the help of modern tyres they are even further ahead of all other TS bikes. However as today its very easy to make a stock TLR work very well indeed, without spending that much money, they are now far more popular than when they were new. On of the main reasons the old Spanish bikes (in standard form) are today so far off the pace, is that they were designed with the very poor tyres around at the time in mind, and while steering and suspension geometry can both be improved to better suit modern conditions and tyres, in standard form they are pretty nasty, and not likely to be the sort of thing a serious UK TS championship contender would choose.
The small Honda was not popular because it would not get over the large obstacles. Most of today`s twinshock events are nowhere close to the diffuculty of the sections of old. At least of the upper riders. And I don`t ever remember thinking if only I had better tires I could get over this rock. I do remember when the michelin radial came along with different compounds. And of course everybody only bought the W. And I`m still not sure about the `lite` yet. Speaking of tires I have to go see if the little reflex will hold air. Just got it running an hour ago!
The TY175 is not exactly great for tackling 4ft rock steps, but sold pretty well over a long period. Back in the 80s anyone serious would most often buy a Fantic, but lesser bikes such as the TY were very popular with less able riders.
The TY is still very popular in twinshock trials, especially in France where lovely TY show up: Some in France are very well rebuild and fitted with contemporary frames from UK, like this one with a school boy Withlock frame: Yamaha did not change very much in the design of the twinshock Yamahas any progress back then was done by small companys like Mjesty, Whitehawk, .. until the Mono Yamaha showed up. These already back then modified machines where very competetive. In an British trials magazine they made an shoot out between such a modified Yamaha Majesty Twinshock TY with a 320cc engine against a 340cc Sherpa, model 199b, (the shoot out test was done in 2010), the Spanish bike won clearly. Anyway 80% of trials riding is about personal skills, 5% is luck the remining 15% are up to the machine, (in my personal view): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2y9h1ONFw8
Oh good, a thread that will continue this discussion without hijacking my "Fun with OJ" thread. Thanks for starting this, Mitch! A 4" rock, JeffS77? Really?? I know of a certain TY80 that has gone over MUCH bigger stuff successfully, for many years now....... Reflex's are pigs. Have fun with the thread.
I thought this little Honda had turned into a beta. Took 15 minutes of riding to break that cliutch loose after 10 years!
I assume it's running OK now? Not looking like a runaway 1st place in Twin Shock A for brewtus this week!
In actual fact the Godden framed TY175 pictured isnt much more competitive than a stock bike, nor are the recently made Whitlock framed bikes! The reason for this are 1970s type steering/suspension geometry, and the rather peculiar want to generally fit big bore kits, which mean that in most cases performance isnt as good as a modified stock motor. If the Godden "Mini Majesty" frame is modified though they can be reasonably good, and a competitive bike can be built using one of these frames with a modified Yamaha Blaster motor fitted. The Majesty bikes do look very nice though, but in most cases not that great to ride, and very easy to burn your leg on exhausts which have no heat shields fitted.
Yes,the TLR200 wasn't considered a real trials bike at the time, but when we were getting good numbers at our twinshock trials 3 or 4 might turn up. The TLR250 is more of a trials bike - that extra 50cc and the better ratio 5 speed box allow it to be ridden in 2nd gear, and to loft the front at will like a 2 stroke. I came back to trials in 2000 with a KT250, but it was a wayward beast and then changed to the TLR200. Suspension and handling are better than most twinshocks, so am reluctant to move to a so called better twinshock and lose that. Handling or engine? After having the Honda for 10 years, looks like I prefer the handling. At first I thought the pegs were too high, they feel higher than the CG....but now I'm used to it I see no reason to change. My only complaints are the engine, even if modified it's gutless, and you don't have the 2 stroke advantage of using the flywheels with no engine braking. The TLR has to be ridden aggressively, with the throttle more on than off - fun in a rocky stream bed where to throttle off could mean a stall, so lots of throttle action like a modern rather than the slower methodical course of a heavy flywheel 2 stroke. To gear the TLR200 down enough to use 2nd gear in sections, it's still too high. When I questioned other TLR riders,and even TLR250 riders about the gearing they just shrugged and said they use 1st for everything...so do I now. It means you can't loft the front wheel easily over obstacles, but the aggressive nail it and go method seems to work well. I'll use 2nd on a long climb with an easy exit, but if they put some trickery at the top I just MX it all the way up. I stripped and rebuilt my TLR200 using very few parts in a few days - and in 10 years I've only had to replace a few broken parts, changed the oil a couple of times, and have never even looked at the air filter or spark plug. Sure I'd love a Fantic, but the Honda is just stupidly dumb reliable. Wash, remove wheels and clean brakes, remove and soak chain....put it away and pull it out any time and use it.
A slightly modified TLR200 that was ridden to 3rd place in the UK twin-shock championship a couple of years back, was able to use 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears in the sections no problem at all. A properly done 200 works far better than a 250, which doesnt have enough flywheel weight, and a front end which is much too light unless the pegs are moved forward.
We would never see 3rd gear unless going down hill. Second only on a straight easy approach. But to be fair in the UK you are probably running with 30% more power than us do to the elevation. Sure is a sweet little motor. Now that I have it running it has been first kick every time. I`ll try to fit some pegs today as I`ll be headed to our event tommorow. Not enough time to do any real mods. I actually have it for sale, really wanting a Fantic.
Bobby could be riding a 1975 GL1000 Goldwing in Twinshock "A" this weekend and beat me. A "runaway 1st place" isn't in the cards for me against Lineaway!! Not that I'm just going to lie down and give him a win though.....
