Thanks very much, Cleatus, I appreciate it! Hope it's of some use to you. Because of negative reaction, open insults, trashing of thread and so many other folks posting their own better ideas of the best 2WD designs I've decided to leave it to them and to delete the major substance of my original posts. Apparently it isn't needed so I'll simply remove it to keep everybody happy. Thanks again!
Sounds like a threat, which in my view is far less welcome here than technical critique. Id love to see your final product proven in real life challenging off-road use, and see how that cheaper, simpler, lighter, stronger works out. Its quite arrogant to claim all those superior aspects without having an actual working (proven) prototype. How does it work when the engine sprocket is on the opposite side as the sidecar? How do you put 50% of a 100HP engine through a clutch without that clutch being slightly heavy and/or bulky? Is the clutch fully enclosed and sealed to keep out dirt and water? How do you mount and seal it without adding weight and bulk? How does the clutch get disengaged? Handlebar lever? Foot pedal? When fully disengaged, such as when on the highway, doesnt the slight drag over many miles wear that clutch out pretty quickly? What happened when the side wheel gets traction when the rear wheel is slipping due to mud or sand? Doesnt all the horsepower go through that clutch? What happens when you go around a turn with it engaged, and the sidecar wheel tries to rotate faster than the drive shaft? Any friction/drag at all would make it an inferior concept in my view. Im sure youve worked out all these issues, but its not clear from your brief (now deleted) description. If I understand your concept correctly, Ive seen every component used before in sidecar 2WD systems. And all those components have been discussed right here on ADV in other 2WD discussions. So what is the unique part of yours? To me it looks like youve invented something thats been done before, made wild technical claims about something you havent even built, and made assumptions about decades of designs by many others without ever having seen those other designs. Then when critiqued you cry about it. Your gift to us here, or at least to me, is your entertaining personality, not your 2WD vision.
Don't go getting your knickers in a twist, XL-erate. Many, many, many, others have already considered plenty of ideas for creating a 2WD Outfit. I've had my own, and that's going back more than thirty years - well before I ever owned an outfit! I've lost count of haw many I've had (more than 18) and none required twisting a motorcycle engine about 90% in its existing mountings. Why do this? There is already a choice of output from different makes & models - heck, Honda (and likely other Japanese builders) have multiple motor and gearbox versions with shaft, chain, or belt exiting from an exact same rear corner of the housing. More than thirty years ago I realized a chain drive sprocket could be modified to "twist" a layshaft. Just like the same interval ago I realized some shaft-drive units could be changed for Left Hand lateral toothed belt/chain, and still others for Right Hand lateral toothed belt/chains. GWs, CX-GL500/650, BMW, Guzzi on the Right, and most other Japanese on the Left. Haven't looked up MV Augusta nor Rocket III! I (also) realized that there was no abiding reason why an outfit's motor could not sit just rear of the line between hack and tug-rear wheels. GP racing sidecars could have used 2WD, but it may well be a banned technology. GP racing sidecars have employed many different engine locations and orientations. Many, many, ideas keep popping up. Many hatch ideas and then discard those for better ones. The KISS rule has never been so applicable to Hack 2WD concepts. Mobec ignores this rule, and that's why one will normally need a second morgage to go the Mobec route. Researching U.S. Patent applications and their designs may be helpful, but the outright rubbish to possible useable fractions could just be in the ratio of 25:1 Safety on motorcycles anyone? Maybe Pakistan can Patent their ideas for increasing passenger capacity for railway transportation? . . . . . .
I think I am a little bit baffled by this thread. What's the big deal here? Gotta be about a zillion different ways to create two wheel drive if someone wants to do it. And it has been done in various ways already. Heck lets go for three wheel drive while we're at it. If two is good three must be better.
Christini two-wheel-drive motorcycle + driven wheel hack would be just the thing! somebody loan me some money and I'l get right on it.
Easy, a hydraulic pump driven directly from the bike motor, 3 hydraulic motors connected through adjustable proportioning valves. Hell, even an old turdherder like me can figure that one out........
　 As for patents, I didn't mention anything about patents, end of story on that. Regarding: "I’d love to see your final product proven in real life challenging off-road use, and see how that "cheaper, simpler, lighter, stronger" works out. It’s quite arrogant to claim all those superior aspects without having an actual working (proven) prototype." Can't recall where I specified this for extremely challenging off road use though it's somewhat implied. There are countless uses in normal riding on moderate back roads, snow etc. where it would be very usefull as compared to use in mud up to your kneecaps or sand up to the fuel tank. If one desired to build for ultra-extreme use then it's again real simple: they will have to build accordingly. I gave a detailed description that an inventive mind with suitable experience could apply to a working design based on their own particulars and needs and skills. Folks who lack what it takes in requirements needed to build it themselves obviously should not undertake to do so. Many of those who are qualified and able have already communicated their plans to me based on what was posted so apparently there's not a whole lot missing to a clever mind in the description I gave, but later deleted. Regarding your long list of questions, I didn't include answers to all those for several reasons. First, it was already a very long post and I didn't want to stretch it out to 50,000 words and a full page of text. That was out of respect to others. Many of those questions are answered by the builder looking at his particular application and use. I never set out to describe every conceivable variable or possibility that could ever occur in the lifetime of the design according to every possible use or application of it. The list of possible questions is virtually endless so there's not much point, nor do I have the time and inclination, in answering them all before they're asked. 　 An example: "How does it work when the engine sprocket is on the opposite side as the sidecar?" Answer: It works exactly the same but the builder's design parameters have changed slightly in which case he would have to adapt accordingly and if he is too limited in his abilities to do so he shouldn't try to build it! Regarding the many questions about clutches one might take apart a DANA 70 - 80 Power-Lok rearend and see what the clutch packs look like and just how huge and robust they are. If you never have you're in for a shock. Yet those small, skinny, skimpy little clutch discs and steels can transmit full power from a 500 HP ultra-torquer diesel for over 200,000 miles with no service required! Or how big, hulking monstrously massive are the clutches in a 150-200 HP motorcycle??? By any chance are they about 4"-5" diameter and about 1/8"-3/16" thick??? You claim to have seen 'every component' of my design description used before and described right here in ADV. Strange that, because I've read virtually every thread on this forum on the subject and I never saw anything even vaguely similar described with details and descriptions of how it works, or with working models shown. I've never seen it on any other bike or sidecar forum, or any offroad and dunebuggy type forum, or any automotive machine related forum. Suprises me that you suggest that examples of the same design are scattered throughout this forum when I haven't seen one single mention anywhere on the whole internet in almost 20 years of searching: NOT THIS DESIGN, that's for absolute sure! Similar? What, that a clutch can be used in transmission of power? No kidding, and since about 1899, but nothing specifically like this. You suggest that you've seen 'every component' used in sidecar 2WD. Were those components that I described, every one that you've found mentioned 'elsewhere', assembled together into a single very simple working system that can be built at home by a skilled and experienced guy with only one outside machining process required and no complicated manufactured parts or extremely expensive manufactured assemblies used? It is 100% original from my own mind and God given talents in mechanical things. .
Hey ya, Claude! The big deal? Don't know if you saw the original post before I chose to delete it after all the insults and thread trashing? It was a clearly written and simple description of a very mechanically simple 2WD system that I laid out as a free gift to any who wanted to build it. Apparently most folks were unable to read the words at all. They added words I didn't say, misinterpreted what I did say, misapplied what I said from how it was intended and described to be applied, disagreed with me over things I didn't ever say, added open insults to my character and intentions and what I had written, accused me of saying things I never said, accused me of theft of other's intellectual property and accused of boasting that other's intellectual property and hard work were actually mine! In addition the posting of piles of huge even gigantic and totally, thoroughly unrelated pictures quickly and completlely trashed the entire thread into oblivion so that all original meaning and intention and benefit was lost. Other than that I guess no big deal? I'll be talking to you this week if possible...
Very interesting thread Let me understand: you do not want to show anything 'cause of patent (non existing as now right?) infringement fear? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o> But at the same everyone trying to understand your words and not agreeing is an a$$hole?<o></o> Why dont you patent your genius system (no sarcasm) and come back with a product you could sale proving your idea were good? Right now it is only:
Wow dude sounds like the whole world is against you. I have a feeling if you were to just quit typing and build the darn thing, whatever it is, and show some pictures it may make more sense than your so well articulated words here. No offense please.
OK, I'll probably have my civility and ability to read questioned for daring to post something in the OP's thread, but..... <iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZTYQVzvZPw4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Sooo, XL-erate we can just say fairly, the other boys on the court didn't let you win, so you took your ball and went home?
I too have thought about this,just a electric motor above the sidecar wheel with a chain running down to the sidecar wheel.You could use some sort of a adjustable switch ( like a dimmer switch ).I just bought a $49, 2,000lb ATV winch for my hack and thought the winch motor could work for this !!. Alan.. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nothing I like better than an argument ! Where to I apply ? LOL On another take on 2wd Yamaha worked with Ohlins to add front wheel assist to some Dakar bikes via a hydraulic motor and pump that ran off transmission I believe. Lots of tractors listed as front wheel assist and some Toro Engineer in Minneapolis built himself a hydrostatic motorcycle with a Yanmar 3cyl diesel powering the pump.DB
For some godforsaken reason, I decided to punish myself, and try once again to see if I could comprehend what the original poster is/was proposing. I think I have it now... :eek1 The uniqueness of his design (I think) is this: The transverse shaft providing power to the hack wheel comes from a PTO from the bike's engine (somehow), that's ahead of the hack wheel, and has a sprocket on the end driving a chain back to the hack wheel, which is a standard bike rear wheel with a sprocket. As opposed to a PTO from the rear wheel/diff of a shaft-drive bike, with the transverse shaft to the hack wheel and u-joints at both ends to allow for suspension movement. My question is: How the hell to you get/create a "PTO" from a bike engine that doesn't have one? How could that possibly be done with off the shelf components? But I'll give the idea one theoretical advantage: Look at the second picture in Bieb's post #2. The gearbox is rigidly mounted to the hack frame, which is fixed in relation to the bike frame. Therefore, both jack shafts have to account for suspension travel (with four u-joints). XL-erate's design, if I understand it correctly, would keep the drive shaft fixed in relation to the hack frame and the bike frame, and only the chain to the hack wheel is needed to allow for the suspension travel. That is pretty simple, and doesn't require u-joints. I just don't know how you spin a shaft off the motor of a stock bike.
There's a guy on stromtroopers who came up with a external Alt off the left hand side of the crankshaft.That could run a PTO instead of a Alt !!,but nothing would be " off the shelf parts" except the pump and a seal or 2. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's the way I read it as well. But that's basically the same concept I planned for my own rig (which I don't claim as unique since I've seen similar implementations before). The difference is my concept was to use a sprag clutch bearing instead of clutch plates. In my case, the engine sprocket is on the opposite side of the motor as the sidecar. So the shaft goes from in front of the side swingarm all the way under the motor, and attaches to the engine countershaft via a chain and a second sprocket directly beside and mounted onto the existing countershaft sprocket. The idea is that the sprag clutch only engages when the rear wheel spins faster than the side wheel. That way you only get 2WD when the rear is slipping, which is exactly the way I want mine to work. On my rig there is just enough room to fit the shaft below the engine transmission OVER the sidecar frame to a point just in front of the side swingarm pivot. It's a perfectly straight shot from one side to the other, so no U-joints, and no loss of ground clearance.
