Braking by Nick Ienatsch

What feels natural to you is generally how I ride. Trail brake till I see the exit; release brake; and slowly pick up the throttle as I stand the bike up past the apex.

I understand now, thanks.

Right on! Good to see you over here :) Wish I had spent some time on "the balls" before I ran across that corner last year -- I'm certain it would have made a difference.

Also, I meant to post this in my earlier reply to crofrog: in gymkhana, you brake front *AND* rear as well...well, some people do, but I haven't gotten there yet. I'm still just doing the poor-man's T.C. thing, so far :) But you were correct to point out that I was specifically addressing rear brakes while O.P. was talking about using the front brake, and I appreciated you clearing that up.

I think we're saying the same thing. I was just trying to clarify that neutral is on the gas. We both do the same thing in a corner.

Ok, so now we're getting into the "advanced" stuff

Being at neutral throttle (aka not accelerating or slowing) or even slightly cracked on, in a slippery corner means that if you find the limits of traction at one. It will be with the back. Sliding the back around is allot easier, less scary, and more fun than pushing the front. It is possible to push the front a bit, but it's walking a tight rope. The rear tire if it breaks traction is very easy to control.

Now, as to "If I have to release the throttle, the bike will jerk forward, loading the front tire instantly." This is a rider smoothness issue. You need to shut the throttle more slowly, and overlap your control inputs. In slippery corners using the above technique I'll often be dragging the rear brake against the throttle. If the back tire starts to spin up add a little rear brake, if you need to start slowing down add some rear brake against the throttle and then smoothly close the throttle while coming into the front brake.

That isn't wrong and is very much what I do when riding fast, but it shouldn't be the only way you know how to ride. Experiment with getting onto the gas earlier and play with no brake riding in the twisties where you just try to maintain a constant speed through the corners and straights and never touch the brake lever. I think you'd learn allot from it.

I know you're saying you aren't trying to go fast but I see allot of riders who use the brakes as almost a safety blanket. They're scared to be on the gas or to use lean angle so they're always on the brakes.

Watch the front brake against the throttle. It's very easy to lock the front if there's any acceleration forces coming out of the rear tire.

It's easy to test and will teach you what a front wheel lock up feels like.

Go out and start applying the front brake and then add throttle to maintain the same speed keeping doing both until the wheel locks. It will happen _much_ sooner than you thought it would because the acceleration from the rear wheel is preventing any weight transfer to the front tire.

Agree...

I believe one of the reasons we have such heated debates in this forum is that I tend to make statements that are not qualified by "if you are a noob, do A and if you are an expert racer do B". The statements I make are independant of the rider's skill level *generally*. Trail braking is good. Whether a particular ride can employ that technique is another matter...

So many argue sound principles of high performance riding, appropriate for street or track, because of the context of the rider's skills. Or lack of... Rather than making statements that are simply true.

Barry

@ crofrog

I crashed several times fooling on a cross track with street tires (small supermoto), and found out how it feels to loose the front. Scary, it finishes in a split second. It absolutely makes sense what you said about cornering on a slippery surface and preference of loosing the rear than the front, and I agree with that.

Other vehicles and traffic situations can force me to react suddenly and unwillingly, which is riskier on a slippery surface. I am not aware of any technique for quick reactions and escape maneuvers on that kind surface apart from slowing down before something happens.

I wonder what kind of magic this guy uses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V9GVXydp3c

Speaking about the situations in traffic - it is often not possible for me to shut the throttle slowly when something happens instantly on the road, be it other cars, animals, bumps, sand or any kind of surprise. In that situation, I can not shut the throttle both "quickly and gently" enough to avoid pogoing the bike. I am not that good, I have to use the brakes.

This technique sounds very logical, I will try it, thanks.

I agree that there should not be only one way to ride. Depends on the visibility of the road, amount of traffic, kind of surface, and the mood at the moment. I sometimes like to ride without using the brakes, just by planning the throttle and speed ahead. Less wear on the parts, also? However, I have to admit that I can not maintain the constant speed on the road I am not familiar with.

Long ago, I read that the rule of thumb was that the traction would be reduced to about that of a gravel road (50%?). Been using that ever since and it seems to be about right. That said:

If one drives a cage on a gravel road and lose a little traction in the turns creating a slide, recovering from the slide is more/less easy and fun. Wahoo. Doing the same thing on a bike on wet pavement is considerably more problematic. Fire roading a bike in the wet is not so very different than doing it in the dry as the sliding is pretty consistant. It is dang difficult to recover/maintain wet pavement slides with that kind of gravel road consistancy. Ergo, I am always in awe of that racer on youtube slithering around a GP track in the wet.

Not only that. But let's say that a wet tar snake initiates the slide. There is no good reason to expect the wet pavement beyond the tar snake to have enough traction to overcome the sudden loading of a sliding tire like it would in the dry. A wet tire may be be hooked up surprisingly well due to its smooth loading. But when it lets go, it has to slow down a whole lot to get hooked up again and start recieving/rebuilding its previous speed load. Ergo, in the wet, I may be taking corners marked 30mph at 25mph because I can't recover a 30mph slide nearly as well as a 25mph slide.

Recently, in Malaysia, a local 18yr old MotoGP2 racer in his second race was leading in the wet. The experienced racers were waiting for him to fall as they slowed due to conditions/risk analysis. The kid was good and didn't fall. Finally, in the closing laps, the experienced riders had to pass him. The kid finished 4-5th. Watching the racing in the wet always facinates me. Some racers can get a knee down, some can't.

That depends upon a number of factors. Did the front tire slide out, or the rear? If it's the rear, it's not necessarily a big deal. Been there, done that many, many times. I've slipped the back end under acceleration in the rain, on loose gravel on a paved road, on gravel roads, etc. If you are trail braking with the rear brake, just apply a little more brake and/or reduce throttle a little (smoothly!!!), and IME, it will recover with very little fuss. This is in the dry, but here is a video of me screwing up during a parking lot practice session as an example. If you've got much dirt experience, this should be even less of an issue for you because you should be used to having the back end hang out. If not, get out in the dirt and practice it! It's fun...eventually

To some extent, that is a valid point. In high school physics, I learned that "the coefficient of static friction is much greater than the coefficient of dynamic friction" -- that is, things are a lot more slipperier once they start sliding than they are while they are still hooked up. So, yes, there is some truth that once a tire starts sliding, it is reasonable to assume that it will continue sliding...unless you do something to change one of the variables in the equation. But that's the catch: you have the ability to control at least THREE of those variables: throttle position, brake pressure and lean angle. If you apply brake and/or reduce throttle so that there is less torque (force) between the tire and the road surface, then there is *every* reason to expect the tire to hook back up. I'm no superman, and I'm certainly no MotoGP racer. I'm just an average guy, but while I've dropped my bike a couple of times, I have yet to drop it due to sliding in the rain (and, for the record, I fully intend to keep it that way!)

Braking before corner or during: pick the one that feels right to you and practice it. The difference in effectiveness is probably insignificant on the street.

That little bit of advice helped me greatly on the DR650 and it was a natural carryover when I got the Ninja 500. I can't imagine NOT doing it now.

When you told me to use the front brake in a turn, in the dirt, I thought you were nuts.... till I tried it.....

Pussy.....

Hey, just cuz you dropped yours...

It's really fun in the dirt when you start sliding the front.



Can you tell it was slow in the shop yesterday.

Good article, thanks for sharing. See you for Phase 2 on June 23.

Looking forward to it Steve! How has your riding changed since Taking Level I?

More confident and I hope safer. More telling is that others say my riding has improved noticeably. I still think I need WAY more practice on the FJR though. That bike is so difficult to ride smooth with the snatchy transitions in the F.I. There are fixes though (a little clutch slip does wonders).

I did take my little CBR250R up to the local college parking lot and practice the throttle/breaking exercise. Much easier to do at a slow pace on that bike than the FJR. I ended up putting a zip tie around the lower fork leg to act as a tell-tale. Within about an hour I could do lap after lap of the course (long oval) without the zip tie moving more than an inch from the sagged out position. Pretty good!

Anyway, since the course I went down to SE Ohio (it sucks there, long, straight roads, boring! :) and to North Carolina for the Eastern Owners Meet. I got to bust on Clocklaw for trailering his bike there. Payback is SO sweet.

Anyway, pick from NC. Woohoo!