ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Hacks
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-19-2009, 06:46 PM   #1
Ricardo Kuhn OP
a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave
 
Ricardo Kuhn's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Salt lake city, Utah
Oddometer: 12,221
Question Can you make a "Leaner" hack into a "Rigid"

If your needs or desires change..

The leaner type design makes more sense to me at the moment, maybe because i know very little about sidecars..

The basic question is, what kind of criterias I need to take into account when building a leaner type hack that will let me convert to a rigid when I have more experience and a better understanding of the whole sidecar thing.

The Bike I want to use is one of my old 11GS and I'm ready willing and able to "Hack it" as much as need be

Thanks in advance and sorry if the question is much to silly, oh pictures & diagrams will be great.
__________________
I'm looking for a cheap battery for my 11GS so I can get her running again..
Ricardo Kuhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 07:51 AM   #2
Pugsley/Hobbfather
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Barnard, VT
Oddometer: 393
Design...

I've been working this out in 'Einsteinian Thought Experiments', which is to say that I've been thinking about this for a while.

It would seem that if you had rigid lockout bars with adjustability built in, you could have them lay down on the frame, until needed.

Also, you could make sliding links with a clamp a'la cargo locking bars for trucks, and use the built in adjustability for 'final tweaks. I'm guessing two would be required unless the brace was centralised and stout. Also it would seem that the trail reduction that is unnecessary (or less necessary) with a leaner would become more necessary when in rigid mode.

Compromises are all around. Fun is to be had in every corner of existence, Your Mileage May Vary.
Pugsley/Hobbfather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 08:10 AM   #3
RedMenace
Adventure Sidecar
 
RedMenace's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: GoodLiver,Oregon,USA
Oddometer: 5,168
Sounds a little complicated for a "beginner" project( I know Ricardo likes complicated).

Leaners have different requirements than rigid. Among other things they will likely be lighter both in weight and construction and the mounts will be very low on the bike.

In my opinion you would be better off with a rigid on the GS, but if you want a leaner have at it. To convert to a rigid cut the mounts off and start over.

Just adding top struts to a leaner to make it rigid sounds like a poor compromise, particularly for a rig based upon a heavy bike. I'm sure it can be done, but I'm not sure it's a great idea.
__________________
the Red Menace
"You are measured by how you ride by people who ride, and how you pose by people who pose." Alejo
"Riders who get pissed off are doing it wrong." DAKEZ

RedMenace screwed with this post 12-20-2009 at 08:17 AM
RedMenace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 08:14 AM   #4
RedMenace
Adventure Sidecar
 
RedMenace's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: GoodLiver,Oregon,USA
Oddometer: 5,168
Ricki- I remember the load you where carrying on that KTM you flew into the sagebrush out near Goldendale. I get the feeling you would end up loading your sidecar like that. You can probably haul more and haul it more safely with a rigid set up.
__________________
the Red Menace
"You are measured by how you ride by people who ride, and how you pose by people who pose." Alejo
"Riders who get pissed off are doing it wrong." DAKEZ
RedMenace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 11:56 AM   #5
Ricardo Kuhn OP
a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave
 
Ricardo Kuhn's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Salt lake city, Utah
Oddometer: 12,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace
Sounds a little complicated for a "beginner" project( I know Ricardo likes complicated).

Leaners have different requirements than rigid. Among other things they will likely be lighter both in weight and construction and the mounts will be very low on the bike.

In my opinion you would be better off with a rigid on the GS, but if you want a leaner have at it. To convert to a rigid cut the mounts off and start over.

Just adding top struts to a leaner to make it rigid sounds like a poor compromise, particularly for a rig based upon a heavy bike. I'm sure it can be done, but I'm not sure it's a great idea.
Complicated = challenge = FUN

Senor don Red I trust your judgement, you been around this hacks for longer than i'm been riding.

I guess i will need to make two different machines, since i love the leaner idea, It just sound more playful and faster too please correct me if i'm wrong..

And then a real outfit so i can carry tons of crap, what else i will need a sidecar for..?

well the snow is killing me since I ca not really ride on it, at least not with out crashing a lot.

thanks again for saving my butt
__________________
I'm looking for a cheap battery for my 11GS so I can get her running again..
Ricardo Kuhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 08:40 AM   #6
twintwin
Studly Adventurer
 
twintwin's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Carmel NY
Oddometer: 624
electric leaner

I saw this rig at the last RDV rally in PA. Very interesting and smart concept I even was not aware of.
There is a big actuator between the bike and the chair that replaces the 2 normal upper mounts in a rigid rig. In a right turn, the rider can lean the bike on the right using this big electric tilt (switch on the right below the throttle), straight line, he put back the bike straight, and left turn (switch on the left below the grip), he makes the bike lean away from the chair. I follow this rig for a short ride and I was very impressed by its smooth handling. So if the rider do not want to operate the tilt, he can also forget it and the rig will act as a rigid one.
I do not remember the name of the owner, but I'm sure Claude will jump in this thread, and give you more technical info.


Sorry I do not have better picture, but you can see the upper part of the big tilt, actuator, just below the rider seat.
BTW, the GS in the backround is my rig, and indeed the 11GS is great.
twintwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 12:25 PM   #7
Willi-Jens
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Oddometer: 284
Do yourself a favour and better forget this idea. A leaner and a rigid outfit are two different kettle of fish and shouldn't be mixed at all.
The forces onto the frame and the suspension are very very different between the two!
A suspension as required for a rigid outfit to allow safe driving isn't worth to be called that if installed on a leaner. On the other hand if the suspension is suitable for a leaner it would be unsafe soft for a rigid outfit.
In regards to frame and mounts the forces on a leaner are much lower. So if designed for a leaner they probably shouldn't be used for a rigid outfit.
Also a leaner sidecar should be light while a rigid outfit needs at least a certain amount of weight as part of the sidecar (&frame).

My advice:
If you enjoy riding a solo and simply want to enjoy the same with more space go for a leaner.
If you want a sidecar with its different riding requirements go for a rigid sidecar / outfit and start slowly/carefully.
Willi-Jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:03 PM   #8
Ricardo Kuhn OP
a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave
 
Ricardo Kuhn's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Salt lake city, Utah
Oddometer: 12,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi-Jens
Do yourself a favour and better forget this idea. A leaner and a rigid outfit are two different kettle of fish and shouldn't be mixed at all.
The forces onto the frame and the suspension are very very different between the two!
A suspension as required for a rigid outfit to allow safe driving isn't worth to be called that if installed on a leaner. On the other hand if the suspension is suitable for a leaner it would be unsafe soft for a rigid outfit.
In regards to frame and mounts the forces on a leaner are much lower. So if designed for a leaner they probably shouldn't be used for a rigid outfit.
Also a leaner sidecar should be light while a rigid outfit needs at least a certain amount of weight as part of the sidecar (&frame).

My advice:
If you enjoy riding a solo and simply want to enjoy the same with more space go for a leaner.
If you want a sidecar with its different riding requirements go for a rigid sidecar / outfit and start slowly/carefully.

Thank Willi that is why I ask the question, so i get a nice solid response (if I ask the same on the Gspot, I will get a million Half ass answers) from the people that really know their shit.
__________________
I'm looking for a cheap battery for my 11GS so I can get her running again..
Ricardo Kuhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 03:14 PM   #9
Precis
Maladroit malcontent
 
Precis's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Lumpy part of Victoria
Oddometer: 3,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Kuhn
Thank Willi that is why I ask the question, so i get a nice solid response (if I ask the same on the Gspot, I will get a million Half ass answers) from the people that really know their shit.
Hi

I've had both leaners (Flexit) and rigids (mostly Velorex, but a couple of others too) and as Jens said, they really are different animals. For a start for a leaner, you'd be better off keeping all the aspects that make a motorcycle steer by leaning - so about 4" of trail for straight-line stability, taller wheel-tyre combinations for gyroscopic stability and round-profile tyres. You also want more space between bike and hack, to give it room to lean - especially on a flat twin.

On a rigid, you want none of these. But you do want a fat-ass steering damper - which you don't on a leaner.

It also depends upon where you ride - the leaner's main disadvantages are that it can fall over when stopped (though I did learn to balance for the full duration of a red light - games people play!) and they're not really that nice on gravel. I've never bothered to work out why (Leave that to the grey-beard philosophers!), but the first time I hit a nice smooth flat gravel round at about 100km/h, I had the most awful tank-slapper, so I learned to inch along.
Rigids are obviously a lot better fun on gravel and you can slide them much more easily than you can on asphalt. The rigid boys heaped scorn on my Flexit on the way into our rally - but I rounded them up & left 'em for dead on the sealed roads, as the leaner can go a lot faster with a lot less effort on a windy road.
It depends if your riding is more gravel than tarmac - personally, every journey I make starts and finishes with 4km of dirt - but the 10, 100 or 1000 km in between will mostly be on tarmac.
My gut feel is that you want a rigid for your he-man macho GS and build up a sport-tourer with a leaning rig - ST1100 or K-bikes are popular.
As Jens also said, a leaner can afford to be much lighter, so you can get away with a smaller-engined tug - the very first Flexit I rode (a proof-of-concept experimental rig, in 1984) was attached to an R45, but any 600cc+ torquey twin should suffice.
Steve'
Melbourne, Aus
Precis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 12:35 PM   #10
Willi-Jens
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Oddometer: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by twintwin
I saw this rig at the last RDV rally in PA. Very interesting and smart concept I even was not aware of.
There is a big actuator between the bike and the chair that replaces the 2 normal upper mounts in a rigid rig. In a right turn, the rider can lean the bike on the right using this big electric tilt (switch on the right below the throttle), straight line, he put back the bike straight, and left turn (switch on the left below the grip), he makes the bike lean away from the chair. I follow this rig for a short ride and I was very impressed by its smooth handling. So if the rider do not want to operate the tilt, he can also forget it and the rig will act as a rigid one.
I do not remember the name of the owner, but I'm sure Claude will jump in this thread, and give you more technical info.


Sorry I do not have better picture, but you can see the upper part of the big tilt, actuator, just below the rider seat.
BTW, the GS in the backround is my rig, and indeed the 11GS is great.
Judging by the given explanation that outfit isn't really a leaner but a rigid outfit that merely tilts. The riding of one of those will be most probably still like a normal rigid outfit with a better weight distribution towards the corner (although with car tyres the tilting might reduce road grip).
Willi-Jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 02:01 PM   #11
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi-Jens
Judging by the given explanation that outfit isn't really a leaner but a rigid outfit that merely tilts. The riding of one of those will be most probably still like a normal rigid outfit with a better weight distribution towards the corner (although with car tyres the tilting might reduce road grip).
That is good friend Gary Hayne's outfit. He and the late J.R. Ewing experimented a lot with this type of setup which IS NOT a free leaner but rather what we may call a POWER LEANER. There is a linear actuator as an upper strut that leans the bike very quickly. The lower front mount is higher than the rear to make the sidecar wheel steer in the direction of the turn. It does work and does work well but is nto ridden like a free leaner.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/

claude screwed with this post 12-20-2009 at 02:09 PM
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 02:08 PM   #12
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,457
A lot of the ARMEC leaners seem to be based on BMW GS bikes. Th eground clearnace is a plus in that it allows greate lean angles in the turns before a interference problem with the sidecar arizes. It also allows the lower pivots to be mounted higher. Google ARMEC Sidecars.
Redmenace is right though. With a leaner a lighter sidecar is good. To convert to a rigid the weight of th esidecar may not be sufficient.
Can a rig be made to switch back and forth? Yes. It has been done and worked quite well. It will all come down to where one decides to make the compromoses necessary to make both systmes work for them. There used to be three or so canadian outfits that we woudl see at various rallies who did this. They had a front pivot in front of the engine and the rear one was behind the rear wheel. The outfits seemed to work pretty good.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 11:17 AM   #13
Willi-Jens
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Oddometer: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by claude
That is good friend Gary Hayne's outfit. He and the late J.R. Ewing experimented a lot with this type of setup which IS NOT a free leaner but rather what we may call a POWER LEANER. There is a linear actuator as an upper strut that leans the bike very quickly. The lower front mount is higher than the rear to make the sidecar wheel steer in the direction of the turn. It does work and does work well but is not ridden like a free leaner.
That's what I meant. It will (I assume) ride like a rigid outfit just with improved weight distribution (once the rider is experienced), but most probably a bit tricky in S-curves and curve combinations unknown to the rider.
Willi-Jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:05 PM   #14
Ricardo Kuhn OP
a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave
 
Ricardo Kuhn's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Salt lake city, Utah
Oddometer: 12,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by claude
That is good friend Gary Hayne's outfit. He and the late J.R. Ewing experimented a lot with this type of setup which IS NOT a free leaner but rather what we may call a POWER LEANER. There is a linear actuator as an upper strut that leans the bike very quickly. The lower front mount is higher than the rear to make the sidecar wheel steer in the direction of the turn. It does work and does work well but is nto ridden like a free leaner.

Claude do you have any pictures of it, specially "naked" photos.

For sure sound like a Half and half a very rigid heavy duty half and half leaner/rigid (when you want to) kind of hack.
__________________
I'm looking for a cheap battery for my 11GS so I can get her running again..
Ricardo Kuhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:00 PM   #15
Ricardo Kuhn OP
a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave
 
Ricardo Kuhn's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Salt lake city, Utah
Oddometer: 12,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by twintwin
I saw this rig at the last RDV rally in PA. Very interesting and smart concept I even was not aware of.
There is a big actuator between the bike and the chair that replaces the 2 normal upper mounts in a rigid rig. In a right turn, the rider can lean the bike on the right using this big electric tilt (switch on the right below the throttle), straight line, he put back the bike straight, and left turn (switch on the left below the grip), he makes the bike lean away from the chair. I follow this rig for a short ride and I was very impressed by its smooth handling. So if the rider do not want to operate the tilt, he can also forget it and the rig will act as a rigid one.
I do not remember the name of the owner, but I'm sure Claude will jump in this thread, and give you more technical info.


Sorry I do not have better picture, but you can see the upper part of the big tilt, actuator, just below the rider seat.
BTW, the GS in the backround is my rig, and indeed the 11GS is great.
Wow Tanking about Complicated the concept sound awesome.
Fast acting hydrolic ram, kind of a pain in the butt to make it work, but also great fun to try, but maybe a little to much for my first project.

Maybe a heavy duty wormdrive can work too, interesting not the less , red menace is right i see the word "Complicated' and i'm first in line.
__________________
I'm looking for a cheap battery for my 11GS so I can get her running again..
Ricardo Kuhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014