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Old 05-01-2011, 01:52 PM   #1
g r a n t OP
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2000 R1150GS - looking for the leak. Chime in all experts!

Hello,
[Edit July 29, 2012: Hi. If you found your way here by the Search engine, Google or by reference from other inmates I am sorry to say that the site where I posted all my images has shut down (Apple's MobileMe). As such, all my images below are no longer available. I promise to one day find a new host (e.g. SmugMug) and re-link everything. One day. As it is summer here in Canada AND I am the proud Dad of my first kid I do not expect to get to this exercise right away. But, I promise I will. I did discuss with JonJen the possibility of uploading a PDF to the HOW however it is too large right now. I you need a copy I can email it to you but the file size is 11Mb due to the large images. Just send me an email as I have not had much time to get to the message board on this site. I will answer your email...but it may take a few days before I get back to you. Thanks.]


[Edit: I have added my step by step break down and reassembly procedure for this leak. It has grown to include: clutch slave, input shaft seal and maybe a new clutch. If you are interested in either helping with or learning from these subjects kindly read through this photo intensive post. When the boss is not looking at your computer of course. During this procedure I have asked other inmates for help. I am listing those links for reference at the start of this post.

Reference Links:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=686674

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=686804

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=349925

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314290

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691154



Original Post:
I need help and advice.
Also, I thank all who take the time to read and respond!

Below is a photo-intensive post illustrating my search for a fluid leak on the '00 R1150GS. Despite the leak I would never have thought there was even an issue the bike. It has been running superbly.

For reference, last week I posted this question and received some good feeback:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=681522

Although the weather was perfect for riding I decided to start pulling the machine apart in an effort to determine the leaking. Not having done this before on an Oilhead (airheads previously) I want to take this in small steps before I get in too far over my head.

I don't mind taking stuff apart and do most regular service on my bike. However, I just don't want to get something apart and find out I should have done something before unbolting ex: locking the clutch, using the guide pins etc. And just where does one find an angle torque wrench?



As most of my gear is still in storage I started by borrowing a good friend's ramp. Then I got down to business with a nice beer from Québec. Yum, the start of summer.


---------------------------------
Off came the seat, tank, battery connections, skid plates, crash bars, exhaust and catalytic converter (why is that so heavy?). I'll skip those pics and get straight to the source of this silliness. The top right arrow points to the black gunk seeping from the clutch and engine case mating surfaces. This has been present since I got the bike 4 years ago. The bottom arrow points to the new leak that started up since the winter (last few months). It is mostly black from the road grime but does have a slight greenish-brown cast to it.


---------------------------------

The starter came off quite easily. Quite black encrusted and a touch of an oil residue.


----------------------------------

Looking up under the transmission toward the lower clutch case. Fresh leaking of something:

----------------------------------


A closer look at the above area:

----------------------------------

The following three pics are looking at and into the clutch area via the removed starter. In front of the clutch housing it seems dry but has collected some black "dust". To the bottom and rear you can see a collection of very oily, black gunk.






--------------------------------------

I carefully inserted a flathead screwdriver into the opening and scraped up some of the black gunk. It is actually quite fibrous. Is this spent clutch material?

--------------------------------------


Finally, here is a shot of the Clutch Slave cylinder. It seems to look ok. There is a very slight film or haze around the mating surface. See orange arrow. I check the master cylinder reservoir and the fluid is clear.


So, thanks again for making it through this post. I've got a ride in 2 weeks and need to assess the parts to order, any special tools, complexity etc.

Cheers,

g r a n t
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Old 05-01-2011, 02:23 PM   #2
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That's from the input shaft seal on the gearbox.

If the leak was from the motor rear main seal the sling pattern would be closer to the nose of the starter housing.


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Old 05-01-2011, 02:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
That's from the input shaft seal on the gearbox.

If the leak was from the motor rear main seal the sling pattern would be closer to the nose of the starter housing.

So, is this all I need? Seal #1 highlighted in yellow?
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:11 PM   #4
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That's the gearbox input seal. Hey, is the backside of the motor case dry? Behind the flywheel I mean. You can look back there with a small mirror. I can't quite tell from the pictures.

Also, is the front side of the gearbox case dry?


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Old 05-01-2011, 03:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
That's the gearbox input seal. Hey, is the backside of the motor case dry? Behind the flywheel I mean. You can look back there with a small mirror. I can't quite tell from the pictures.

Also, is the front side of the gearbox case dry?

Hi. Just checked. The backside of the motorcase (behind flywheel) is mostly dry. There is a very slight black residue on the front in a few places.

The front side of the gearbox case is black, wet and oily. The bottom of the housing is also black, wet and oily. The clutch assy seems dry (I have not noticed clutch slippage). What it looks like is the leak originated at the gearbox side, the oil dripped/weeped down and across the inside bottom of the case. The oil started to weep up the inside face of the motor case (behind the flywheel).

I could see the outer case of the clutch splines and the input shaft splines. Both look shiny and new with out a drop of oil, dust, build-up etc.

Sorry, my camera optics cannot get in there. You can see some of the spotty black residue in places on the backside of the motorcase here:
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g r a n t View Post
Hi. Just checked. The backside of the motorcase (behind flywheel) is mostly dry. There is a very slight black residue on the front in a few places.

The front side of the gearbox case is black, wet and oily. The bottom of the housing is also black, wet and oily. The clutch assy seems dry (I have not noticed clutch slippage). What it looks like is the leak originated at the gearbox side, the oil dripped/weeped down and across the inside bottom of the case. The oil started to weep up the inside face of the motor case (behind the flywheel).

I could see the outer case of the clutch splines and the input shaft splines. Both look shiny and new with out a drop of oil, dust, build-up etc.

You can see some of the spotty black residue in places on the backside of the motorcase here:
Looks like you found it. "Shiny and new without a drop of dust buildup" can translate into a light oil flow onto a spinning shaft. Ever see how clean a scottoiler keeps a final drive chain with that tiny drip drip drip of oil?

Does the oil in the bellhousing have that sulfury gear oil smell? Either way I guess it's sort of academic at this point, since the gearbox will be in your lap soon and you'll be able to see for yourself whether the leak is coming from there.

Nice pictures. I see a input shaft seal R+R thread in the not to distant future.


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Old 05-03-2011, 01:22 PM   #7
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As soon as I gather my tools, supplies, make some guide pins, finish reading the manuals and advice from the masses here that a$$end of the bike is coming off . Probably in two more nights. I will update as soon as I get there. G.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:30 PM   #8
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And, as always, thanks!
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:47 AM   #9
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Disassembly Updates

Hi.
I have gone through many of the posts on this and related topics. I have also reviewed the HOW article(s). I have been documenting my progress on the break-down of the GS in search of the leaks.

I will post pics and descriptions of the progress in hopes they help others on this site.

See below

Grant
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:31 AM   #10
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Disassembly part 1

Notes from Input Shaft Seal replacement BMW R1150GS
1. General Notes:
a. I am not a trained mechanic, but have some skills. I am only putting forth the information I have collected and learned.
b. I have followed my Clymer, BMW Service Manual and the wondering insights of many Inmates on ADVrider. Hopefully this will paint a good picture of the process.
c. When removing fasteners I will usually loosely re-install the fasteners into their original location so I do not lose them and know which fastener goes where.
d. Fasteners are always cleaned before reinstalling.
e. Make a note if a thread locker or anti-seize is used on the bolts.
f. Keep a large selection of zip-ties on hand to temporarily secure wiring and parts. I try to use white or other colours for items being temporarily held so they are easier to identify later.
g. The have recorded the order in which I performed the disassembly. It is not always the same as the Clymer or the BMW Service manual.
2. Strapped front wheel to bench
3. Strapped front wheel to centre stand to keep stand from releasing accidentally.
4. Remove gas tank
a. Quick disconnects from Beemerboneyard one of best investments
b. Open ends of disconnects covered with plastic to prevent contaminants entering openings.
c. Disconnect power/communication connector
d. Disconnect lines to charcoal canister. As the lines are similar in size and material I applied a small dot of white paint to ensure I match up the right lines in the future.
i. Observation: when I disconnected one of the lines to the canister several milliliters of water dribbled out of the line. Is this to be expected? Is this condensation? Where the lines installed in reverse and thus causing this water build-up?
5. Battery
a. Disconnect power from battery
b. Remove previous coating of dielectric grease.
c. Clean fasteners and terminals.
d. Loosely re-install fasteners only (not the wiring) to the terminals so fasteners are not misplaced.
6. Remove skid plates and lower crashbar.
a. Skid plate missing flush fastener at bottom.


7. Remove muffler. Two brothers aftermarket low exhaust. Why is this so much lighter than my OEM muffler?

8. Remove the catalytic converter
a. 2 @ 5mm hex bolts connect the catalytic converter to frame
b. Catalytic converter attached to header pipes with clamps. Removed clamps.
c. Temporarily tied the cat to the footrest. See photo. Later I tied it to the header so I could remove the footrest.
i. O2 sensor would not release from threads in the cat. Cat relocated to the side of the bike and secured to frame with a ziptie.


9. Starter removed
a. Observed bottom of clutch housing area covered with a black soot-like substance. Soot was also oily. Greater concentration on the transmission side and not the engine side.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:44 AM   #11
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Disassembly Part 2

10. Noticed shifter lever is loose on the splined connection.
a. Shifter arm removed
b. Noted blue loctite on bolt from arm to mounting at footrest.
c. Need to clean and grease connections/moving surfaces.
d. Need new “foam” bushings.
11. Disconnected Throttle Bodies
a. It was difficult to slide the flexible tubes back into the air box. I could only get one at a time to be recessed.
b. Inspected the inner chamber of the TBs. A bit of carbon on the LHS.
c. I stuff an old sock (clean) into the intake port to keep foreign material out. Also bagged the TBs to keep them clean.
d. Ordered new O-rings.









12. Air Filter
a. Disconnect sensors from air filter housing lid.
b. Air filter housing lid tipped forward and secured with ziptie.
c. Filter has 10,000 miles on it. Seems clean but a new one is going back in.
13. Fluids
a. Note: I decided to drain the fluids after working on the bike. So, the fluids are drained cold. Once all is buttoned up I will do a fill, get the bike to operating temperature and then do a proper fluid change.

b. Final Drive fluid drained.
i. Red. Inspected fluids. Noted a small sliver of metal. Looked more like a shaving from the crush washer or possibly a thread. Not concerned.
ii. Small amount of black paste on magnetic plug. Normal.
iii. Applied painters tape to the opening for the ABS sensor to prevent foreign material from entering.






c. Transmission fluid drained
i. Red colour. No metal apparent.
d. Engine oil not drained at this point.


14. Unclipped brake-light switch at connector near RHS of fusebox.



15. Unclipped ABS sensor cable at connector near RHS of fuse box. See pic for item 14. They are adjacent.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:56 AM   #12
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Disassembly Part 3

17. Removed RHS footrest assembly.
a. Note: top bolt had a small amount of red loctite at the tip.


18. Removed allen screw holding Master Cylinder junction to rear frame.
a. Note: blue loctite on threads
b. Zip-tied everything together to keep the cables from flopping around.


19. Removed LHS footrest assembly
a. Note: Did not notice red loctite on threads but did see a small amount of rust on the very tip of the bolt


20. Loosened LHS and RHS bolts securing the rear frame to the main frame. These are at the front of the rear frame.


21. Loosened the “through-bolt” at the front of the rear frame.

Picture for 20 and 21:


22. Drained Clutch Fluid
a. Removed BMW grub screw. Forgot about the red loctite and did not heat the grub screw. Threads seem fine. I cleaned the Loctite off of both threads.
b. I had pre-ordered the BMW bleeder screw. I noticed it did not fully seat in the clutch line housing. As such I could still hear some air escaping through the bleeder screw. Will have to re-install the grub screw.
BMW check valve piece. Grub screw inserts into left end.



23. Was having trouble getting the rear frame to raise. I had loosened all bolts, cut cable ties, moved apparatus aside and could still not figure out why the frame would not lift. Finally I had a Eureka moment when it dawned on my that a rigid object cannot rotate about 2 points simultaneously. So, I went to the front of the frame and removed the mounting bolts and left the “through bolt” in place. The frame lifted no problem. Live and learn.

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Old 05-12-2011, 11:57 AM   #13
rtortore
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
You took a picture of it. The rubber bush on the clutch housing starter relief, at 12 o'clock.



Whew! Thanks.
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:33 AM   #15
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I've been watching without comment, but I thought and think you also have a leaky rear main seal. Pulling the clutch and flywheel at this point is easy, so I would strongly suggest you do it to at least check to be sure.
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