ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-19-2011, 06:09 AM   #1
John Smallberries OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
John Smallberries's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Northville, Michigan
Oddometer: 1,223
Harley Davidson ABS lawsuit - does this guy have a case?

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/12/16/412...-accident.html

Anyone heard of this tragic incident in California? Do you think the plaintiff has a valid case against Harley Davidson?

I'm curious if anyone has one of these bikes. Does the "ABS" indicator actually light during key-on or start-up, even for bikes that are not equipped with ABS. The article seems to imply this, but is not perfectly clear. One of you probably knows...
__________________
'05 BMW 1200GS
'09 Honda CRF230
'10 Yamaha TW200
John Smallberries is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 06:32 AM   #2
genka
SUV hater
 
genka's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD
Oddometer: 1,469
The ABS light on the dashboard, is it always off, or does it light up when the ignition is turned on? If the bike acts like it has ABS, it is reasonable for an owner to believe that it is there. You can't expect people to have deep technical knoledge of their vehicles. How many soccer moms know if their SUVs have full or part time AWD, traction control, seat belt preloaders, etc?
As for the lawsuit, regardless of the existence of ABS, the riders actions caused the accident.
__________________
.

Форум мотоциклистов в США http://www.xytopok.net/mvnforum/listthreads?forum=31
genka is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 06:37 AM   #3
rivercreep
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: S.E. Pennsylvania (Reading)
Oddometer: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by genka View Post
As for the lawsuit, regardless of the existence of ABS, the riders actions caused the accident.
Or it could be argued that his belief that he had something to rely on (ABS in this case) so he could just slam on the brakes, caused the accident.

Not for or against here....just playing Devils advocate.
rivercreep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 06:43 AM   #4
bones_708
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Houston, Tx
Oddometer: 574
I believe the ABS light only lights up on bikes with ABS. Like a rear defroster indicator on a car without rear defrosters there may be a space on the dash but the indicator is incapable of lighting up.
bones_708 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 06:44 AM   #5
Offcamber
Beastly Adventurer
 
Offcamber's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Oddometer: 1,559
Unless I missed it the article never says whether the wife was wearing a helmet or not....I'm guessing not due to the injuries she sustained. That aside, if the dealership told him he had ABS( and it can be proved that they did) then they might have a case. I wouldn't be surprised if the salesman did tell them it had ABS. Many times I have walked into car or bike dealer and know more about the product than the sales staff. Of course there is no guarantee that ABS would have prevented the accident...The rider should have the skills to control the bike without relying on ABS.
__________________
"Beer cans explode with a nice loud pop when they are hit by a Heidenau K60 at 40 miles an hour. Now my bike smells like last call..." Me
Offcamber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 08:24 AM   #6
larryboy
Paint it black.
 
larryboy's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Über Alles,Ca
Oddometer: 13,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
Unless I missed it the article never says whether the wife was wearing a helmet or not....I'm guessing not due to the injuries she sustained.

This is California, you can't ride 100 feet without getting arrested for no helmet, but you can wear an illegal beanie helmet.
larryboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 09:08 AM   #7
Jim Moore
Beastly Adventurer
 
Jim Moore's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Jax, FL
Oddometer: 12,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryboy View Post
This is California, you can't ride 100 feet without getting arrested for no helmet, but you can wear an illegal beanie helmet.
Sticky situation for the HD lawyers. It would be nice to say that her crappy helmet caused the extensive injuries. But I'll be the crappy helmet is proudly adorned with the HD logo.
__________________
Jim Moore
Jax, FL

Pay the lady, PirateJohn, you thieving piece of garbage.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
Jim Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 09:11 AM   #8
LuciferMutt
Rides slow bike slow
 
LuciferMutt's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: New(er) Mexico
Oddometer: 10,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Sticky situation for the HD lawyers. It would be nice to say that her crappy helmet caused the extensive injuries. But I'll be the crappy helmet is proudly adorned with the HD logo.

__________________
You couldn't hear a dump truck driving through a nitro glycerin plant!

Badasses might screw with another badass. Nobody screws with a nut job. -- Plaka
LuciferMutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 09:31 AM   #9
andy29847
Dirt Road Rider
 
andy29847's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: South Carolina
Oddometer: 2,066
Quote:
The ABS light comes on if you have it. I'm just trying to figure out how the hell locking the rear wheel catapults your wife 35 feet off the bike.

Seems to me this was a pretty clear case of rider error. It sucks for the wife, but unless the bike's bill of sale says it had ABS, the dealer and the MoCo are blameless.
Panic braking, rear end swings around, rider lets off brake, tires grab, passengers fly.

The ABS lights I have seen come on when the ignition is turned on, then go off (unless there is a problem with the ABS).

It is dumber than shit to have an ABS light on a bike that does not have ABS.
__________________
Andy Simons
ABC#8350
IBA#7647,
Trenton, SC
Smugmug coupon code = bQItjZEfrqLkI
MOAB Ride Report
andy29847 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 10:19 AM   #10
trc.rhubarb
Beastly Adventurer
 
trc.rhubarb's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Concord, CA
Oddometer: 1,866
So the light comes on when you have ABS and yes, it's a cutout behind the gauge so you can sort of see it when it's not lit. It remains lit until you move x amount of feet. I've forgotten how far but about 10 I think.

There is a wire attached to the brake line, a reluctor ring, big ass ABS pumps under the side cover, a frickin DVD that comes with the bike to 'teach' you how to use ABS and I'm sure something else.

The light does not come on when you don't have an ABS equipped bike.

People will sue for anything just like rolling the dice... he might win or they might settle.

It's why every other sentence in the HD manual says "failure to do so may cause serious injury or death"

I'm sorry for his loss, but dammit, quit making it our problem.
__________________
2007 BMW GS Adventure
2000 Ducati 900ss
2010 Harley Ultra Limited
1975 BMW R90/6
Follow me here
trc.rhubarb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 10:39 AM   #11
señormoto
Supermoto Abuser
 
señormoto's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: California + Costa Rica
Oddometer: 1,110
REAL ISSUE THAT WILL BE PROVED IN COURT (caps because I hate this topic due to the idiot HD rider and his idiot claim):
----
judge: "expert witness, please tell us from the photos and statements taken at the scene of the accident, what caused this accident to occur?"
expert: "well sir, the photos show the motorcycle engaged the brakes too heavily due to his excessive entry speed into the corner. the tires locked up and the bike skidded into the guardrail, where upon the passenger was thrown from the bike. unfortunately, the passenger's helmet was not sufficient to absorb the impact and that is what caused the sustained injuries."

judge: "would ABS on the bike have prevented this accident?"
expert: "ABS would not have factored into this accident due to the excessive corner entry speed, which can be proved by start location and amount of rubber left from the tire skid points on the pavement. ABS would not have sufficiently slowed the bike down to prevent this accident, although ABS would have prevented the duration of the skid it would not have changed the point of impact."
----

I'm sorry for this guy's loss, no one deserves to have a loved one hurt from two-up riding, but the claim about ABS is just ridiculous. Every time I get on my F800 I look at the ABS switch light up and I verify it's functionality. On my bikes that don't have ABS I don't see that light - simple logical assumption that ABS doesn't exist (aside from factually knowing about the existence or lack there-of on the different bikes).
__________________
I have a feeling that there are some decisions being made on certain teams lately to make things more complex in order to ensure a certain technological standard of confusion is met.
señormoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 10:42 AM   #12
frontiercat
all out of charm
 
frontiercat's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Tulsa, OK metro
Oddometer: 893
Litigious morons are everywhere. Sucks about their issues, but it is, after all, a motorcycle and they can be dangerous.
frontiercat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 10:55 AM   #13
Mr S Venom
Adventurer
 
Mr S Venom's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Shropshire
Oddometer: 12
Accidents happen but its not always someone elses fault. Too many people mess up and then want to be paid out for their mess. Bad for his wife but its a bike not a cuddly toy.
Mr S Venom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 11:34 AM   #14
cliffy109
Beastly Adventurer
 
cliffy109's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Spotsylvania, VA
Oddometer: 1,582
Sigh... I don't know. I am a believer in personal responsibility and taking ownership of your own errors. However, this isn't so cut and dried.

If a bike has ABS and there is an emergency, you hit the brakes hard. Because you don't have to worry about them locking up, there is no problem with letting up on the brake if conditions allow it. A person who knows they have ABS will use them as intended. There is no reason to consider negative consequences of letting off the brake in mid-stop.

On a bike without ABS, you know that if you lock the rear, you must keep it locked. Letting off is the way to a high-side and propelling your wife 35 feet to her near death. You don't let up mid-stop. It is a different technique for different bikes.

So this guy claims (note the operative word here), he thought it had ABS and presumably riding with a technique that is perfectly appropriate for a bike with that system. According to the article (which could be wrong), he was riding correctly for a bike with ABS.

So now Harley is claiming that it is unreasonable to expect them to build a bike with two different tachometers? Really? That doesn't seem to unreasonable to me. They built them with two different braking systems, didn't they? I can certainly see how a person could see a cut-out that reads "ABS" could think the bike has ABS.

Yes, the owner should have looked into it a bit more and should have practiced with it to ensure he knew how it worked, but this really sounds like something Harley should have been able to forsee. A warning light that doesn't light up tells a lot of people the system is working just fine. That's what the cut-out looked like to this guy.
cliffy109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 11:43 AM   #15
andy29847
Dirt Road Rider
 
andy29847's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: South Carolina
Oddometer: 2,066
ABS light is where?

I believe this is a road glide dash. If so, where is the ABS light? I believe that is is on the warning light strip between the instruments. Just guessing, is that the neutral and battery lights we see lit? In any event, these instruments do not seem to be clearly labeled.

__________________
Andy Simons
ABC#8350
IBA#7647,
Trenton, SC
Smugmug coupon code = bQItjZEfrqLkI
MOAB Ride Report
andy29847 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 04:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014