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Old 04-26-2012, 05:05 AM   #1
rivercreep OP
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When did we stop appreciating...

...motorcycling for what it is?

I don't want this thread to turn into an anti-technology thread as I feel there are some truely good things that have been developed to enhance our (insert, "lifestyle", "sport", "hobby" or whatever you call it, here).

As of late, I keep reading more and more posts where Guys are complaining about comfort in general, and making comments about certain sizes/styles of Bikes not being suitable for hwy. travel or extended trips.

It's maddening at the best!

I've watched drivers in cages become ever worse drivers; (despite the technological advances there) and we're at the point where those vehicles themselves allow drivers to only use 1/2 ther brain for driving while they multi-task and put other users of the roads at risk.

What's maddening to me, is that I see the same things happening within motorcycling and those same cage drivers are finding their way here and whining about the pure nature of our vehicles.
Seriously! ...W.T.F.?...Wind noise, seat comfort, vibrations, lack of protection from the elements, ...and you want factory locations to plug in your electronc B.S. distraction devices here as well?!


As a society in general, I feel we're using technology as a crutch to become lazier and lazier and watching motorcycles follow the same trends as cages I.M.H.O. this is NOT going to end well.

Motorcycles are vehicles that require skill to operate and attention to your riding environment.

The last thing I want to see is the pussification of our Bikes (which is already happening) that will allow anyone to bring their bad cage driving habits to our (insert your nomenclature, here)

You guys bitch about loud pipes and how they put your right to ride at risk (and I agree!) but what about increasingly bad riders who allow themselves to be distracted while riding who lack the skills necessary to actually ride and not turn themselves into 2 wheeled missles that can kill people.

Sorry this is soooo long winded but, I had to let this all out. (snapped on another post recently and had to apologize there)

I'm curious how the ADV collective feels about the loss of appreciation for what motorcycling is about.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:24 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivercreep View Post
...


I'm curious how the ADV collective feels about the loss of appreciation for what motorcycling is about.



If you never had it, how could you lose it???

The times they are a changing...

Not every body grew up ridng with 2 extra spark plugs to change on the road when their 2 stroke fouled one.

This was in the days when 30wt was used for pre-mix.

Kick start only...

Let the past be the past.

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Old 04-26-2012, 06:51 AM   #3
JimVonBaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrashCan View Post
If you never had it, how could you lose it???

The times they are a changing...

Not every body grew up ridng with 2 extra spark plugs to change on the road when their 2 stroke fouled one.

This was in the days when 30wt was used for pre-mix.

Kick start only...

Let the past be the past.



If that is your thing, great! It is NOT everyone's thing.

Personally I like the modern bike's features. I like the old bikes too, but every time I buy one I remember why I like the modern ones. They usually do not handle as well, stop or go as well, and break all the time.

Jim
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:07 AM   #4
FinlandThumper
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I think the very idea that a hobby so general as motorcycling has a single definition of "pure" is a fiction, or that wanting your bike to be reliable and comfortable makes you somehow "less" of a rider. Usually, and this isn't a dis on the OP or anything, concepts of "purity" are usually so ill defined or subject to personal interpretation that the entire thing is bullshit.

I agree with this assessment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Personally I like the modern bike's features. I like the old bikes too, but every time I buy one I remember why I like the modern ones. They usually do not handle as well, stop or go as well, and break all the time.
I remember as a child, my old man had a 1968 Triumph Bonneville bobber, metallic blue with black lace custom tank, tasteful chrome, sweet exhaust. Cool? Sure...that thing literally dripped coolness. Pure? Sure...pure hell to keep the damn thing running. I remember going up the road on the back and suddenly...nothing. No power. Blown fuse, again. Get it to the side of the road and figure out the electrical problem. And while he was at it, he'd grab his wrenches and tighten the loose bolts back up. We were "fixing" as much as we were "riding".

This is why I always laugh when some hipster in a bar says that only British bikes pre-1970 are legit (or something similar). Sure, go ahead and talk. That BSA T-shirt sure turns on the chicks, but I'd love to watch McHipster actually get one running and keep it that way.

I currently have a 2002 BMW Dakar and a 1998 Harley Davidson. Both of them "modern" bikes. Both of them start and run every time but still don't have a ton of frills. But when I want to ride, I don't want to wrench if it's not necessary. And when I ride, especially long distance, I sure as hell want to set the bike up for comfort. What, I somehow need to spend my time motorcycling in pain and on a poor-fitting bike with shitty ergo's just so I can prove to everyone that I'm a "real old skool biker"? I call bullshit!

That's why I like modern bikes. Reliable and easily modified for comfort. Especially since here in Helsinki my only ride is the Dakar; I own no car. So it's either "ride and rust or take the bus", literally.

So am I not "legit enough"? Or do I not "appreciate motorcycling" enough? Maybe, but I stopped giving a fuck about whether some other guy thinks I'm legit a LONG time ago. And while the legit guy is fixing his bike, I'll just go about racking up thousands of miles per season on my non-legit ride, appreciating every mile.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:06 AM   #5
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I was dual sporting a 1969 Triumph Daytona for 5 years and 45,000 miles, and got towed home once when some aftermarket valve adjusters came apart, non standard parts....

Yes, it was a bit of work keeping it trouble free, as the 500's vibrate like mad at high rpm's where they make power, and the trans had some issues, both were not problems on the 650's.

And all it took was a bit of attention to the bike to prevent electrical problems, I never had electrical problems with any of my Triumphs.

I rode a well used Bonneville 9000 miles around the US and only had a flat front tire.
Friends with Harleys had the cdi crap out, flat tires, and the carb fall off from time to time.
50,000 miles of abuse on that bike and I never had to push it or get towed.

I thought it was a better bike then the modern Bonneville which is over weight, under powered, and wobbles in turns, along with having a crap seat and soft shocks.
If they made a new old Bonneville, I would be all over it.
I think the w650 came closer to the old bikes then Triumph did.







Quote:
Originally Posted by FinlandThumper View Post
I think the very idea that a hobby so general as motorcycling has a single definition of "pure" is a fiction, or that wanting your bike to be reliable and comfortable makes you somehow "less" of a rider. Usually, and this isn't a dis on the OP or anything, concepts of "purity" are usually so ill defined or subject to personal interpretation that the entire thing is bullshit.

I agree with this assessment:



I remember as a child, my old man had a 1968 Triumph Bonneville bobber, metallic blue with black lace custom tank, tasteful chrome, sweet exhaust. Cool? Sure...that thing literally dripped coolness. Pure? Sure...pure hell to keep the damn thing running. I remember going up the road on the back and suddenly...nothing. No power. Blown fuse, again. Get it to the side of the road and figure out the electrical problem. And while he was at it, he'd grab his wrenches and tighten the loose bolts back up. We were "fixing" as much as we were "riding".

This is why I always laugh when some hipster in a bar says that only British bikes pre-1970 are legit (or something similar). Sure, go ahead and talk. That BSA T-shirt sure turns on the chicks, but I'd love to watch McHipster actually get one running and keep it that way.

I currently have a 2002 BMW Dakar and a 1998 Harley Davidson. Both of them "modern" bikes. Both of them start and run every time but still don't have a ton of frills. But when I want to ride, I don't want to wrench if it's not necessary. And when I ride, especially long distance, I sure as hell want to set the bike up for comfort. What, I somehow need to spend my time motorcycling in pain and on a poor-fitting bike with shitty ergo's just so I can prove to everyone that I'm a "real old skool biker"? I call bullshit!

That's why I like modern bikes. Reliable and easily modified for comfort. Especially since here in Helsinki my only ride is the Dakar; I own no car. So it's either "ride and rust or take the bus", literally.

So am I not "legit enough"? Or do I not "appreciate motorcycling" enough? Maybe, but I stopped giving a fuck about whether some other guy thinks I'm legit a LONG time ago. And while the legit guy is fixing his bike, I'll just go about racking up thousands of miles per season on my non-legit ride, appreciating every mile.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:27 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinlandThumper View Post
I think the very idea that a hobby so general as motorcycling has a single definition of "pure" is a fiction, or that wanting your bike to be reliable and comfortable makes you somehow "less" of a rider. Usually, and this isn't a dis on the OP or anything, concepts of "purity" are usually so ill defined or subject to personal interpretation that the entire thing is bullshit.

I agree with this assessment:



I remember as a child, my old man had a 1968 Triumph Bonneville bobber, metallic blue with black lace custom tank, tasteful chrome, sweet exhaust. Cool? Sure...that thing literally dripped coolness. Pure? Sure...pure hell to keep the damn thing running. I remember going up the road on the back and suddenly...nothing. No power. Blown fuse, again. Get it to the side of the road and figure out the electrical problem. And while he was at it, he'd grab his wrenches and tighten the loose bolts back up. We were "fixing" as much as we were "riding".

This is why I always laugh when some hipster in a bar says that only British bikes pre-1970 are legit (or something similar). Sure, go ahead and talk. That BSA T-shirt sure turns on the chicks, but I'd love to watch McHipster actually get one running and keep it that way.

I currently have a 2002 BMW Dakar and a 1998 Harley Davidson. Both of them "modern" bikes. Both of them start and run every time but still don't have a ton of frills. But when I want to ride, I don't want to wrench if it's not necessary. And when I ride, especially long distance, I sure as hell want to set the bike up for comfort. What, I somehow need to spend my time motorcycling in pain and on a poor-fitting bike with shitty ergo's just so I can prove to everyone that I'm a "real old skool biker"? I call bullshit!

That's why I like modern bikes. Reliable and easily modified for comfort. Especially since here in Helsinki my only ride is the Dakar; I own no car. So it's either "ride and rust or take the bus", literally.

So am I not "legit enough"? Or do I not "appreciate motorcycling" enough? Maybe, but I stopped giving a fuck about whether some other guy thinks I'm legit a LONG time ago. And while the legit guy is fixing his bike, I'll just go about racking up thousands of miles per season on my non-legit ride, appreciating every mile.

Here's to not giving a fuck!
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrashCan View Post
If you never had it, how could you lose it???

The times they are a changing...

Not every body grew up ridng with 2 extra spark plugs to change on the road when their 2 stroke fouled one.

This was in the days when 30wt was used for pre-mix.

Kick start only...

Let the past be the past.

But sometimes the past is fun. Just ask any SR500 owner. A bike from the recent past that imitates the further past, but with good electrics. Sometimes the throwbacks are really fun, new ones need to be made sometimes to deal with cost. Guys making the old Viragos like Vincents (Doc's Chops) just makes sense, who can afford a Vincent? Almost anyone can afford an old Virago. Then there are the new Triumphs made to be a bit more like old Triumphs.

Sad part is us two stroke lovers just can't do that anymore. You have to buy an old two stroke to have a two stroke. I'm starting to root around for an old Bultaco to make a street legal two stroke single flat tracker. It may come down to buying the lowest buck Alpina which just doesn't have the desirability of any others, and doing it up.

I guess I just don't appreciate all the new technology because it doesn't do anything I want to have done. If I ever want it or if it does what I want on a bike I want I will appreciate it then. The talk of some better off road ABS designs sounds kind of interesting, the Husky with anti-lock only on the front sounds more like what I'd be comfortable with having on my dual sport.
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
But sometimes the past is fun. Just ask any SR500 owner. A bike from the recent past that imitates the further past, but with good electrics. Sometimes the throwbacks are really fun, new ones need to be made sometimes to deal with cost. Guys making the old Viragos like Vincents (Doc's Chops) just makes sense, who can afford a Vincent? Almost anyone can afford an old Virago. Then there are the new Triumphs made to be a bit more like old Triumphs.

Sad part is us two stroke lovers just can't do that anymore. You have to buy an old two stroke to have a two stroke. I'm starting to root around for an old Bultaco to make a street legal two stroke single flat tracker. It may come down to buying the lowest buck Alpina which just doesn't have the desirability of any others, and doing it up.

I guess I just don't appreciate all the new technology because it doesn't do anything I want to have done. If I ever want it or if it does what I want on a bike I want I will appreciate it then. The talk of some better off road ABS designs sounds kind of interesting, the Husky with anti-lock only on the front sounds more like what I'd be comfortable with having on my dual sport.


I am talking about a daily rider. 50 to 5000 miles in the same week.

Old bikes are cool and fun, I would rather ride than wrench.
YMMV.

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Old 04-26-2012, 05:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrashCan View Post
I am talking about a daily rider. 50 to 5000 miles in the same week.

Old bikes are cool and fun, I would rather ride than wrench.
YMMV.


So am I with 45,000 miles on my KLX from doing a 60 mile one way commute and having ridden quite a lot of times on a 20 mile commute to work on the SR some years back.miles a week was nothing. Granted a Gold Wing or Concours would be more comfortable, but they just wouldn't have made Ohio SR164 and 646 near as much fun, much less that few miles on the gravel on the way to them.

And a wrench really hasn't been all that necessary since about 1975 on the Japanese bikes and about 1983 on Harleys (buy out and evos). You have to go back to the 60s to really get into lack of reliability, spelled L-U-C-A-S in English. A lot of cars weren't that hot back then either. In 1980 anything over 35,000 miles was considered high mileage, 60,000 would be a "no sale" for the most part. On the other hand there are a whole lot of 1975-1982 Honda 750s among a lot of other Japanese bikes still running fine with no wrenching really needed. It's all about riding the bikes, not letting them sit and rot in a garage. That is what destroys bikes for sure. Even a modern bike won't stand up to that with fuel turning to varnish and electrical connectors corroding into non-connectivity.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivercreep View Post
As a society in general, I feel we're using technology as a crutch to become lazier and lazier
This has been the trend since the first humans broke rocks into knives to make cutting and tearing easier.


Some things (like sweating) are just going to come with riding a motorcycle and trying to avoid them are more trouble than they're worth. (I'm making faces at you, Veskimo et al).

Other things, like a wind noise problem or "off" seat shape are easily correctable through the aftermarket. The manufacturers could take steps to make them better stock (adjustable screens, seat forms from the dealer, etc).

As for appreciating what motorcycling "is about" - it is about commuting for me. Ride your own ride, as they say.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:58 AM   #11
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I got lost, you need an executive summary. Myself I like comfort. Why would anyone choose to uncomfortable when you don't have to be? No thanks, I'll sit on the floor, in front of the couch.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:09 AM   #12
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Its normal for senior riders to appreciate the art of motorcycle ring as they have experience of the past. Some bounce back to the vintage or classic rides because they miss the vib or the patina of vintage tin. Myself, I don't need a fuel guage or a digital number on the dash to tell me what gear I'm in. I don't need a green neutral light. Turn signals and four way flashers are a nice safety item but I could ride just as safe without them.
I remember riding my old Triumph Bonniville when it was new and my first BMW (R90-S). Crusing and touring in the late 60's through the 70's was alot different than it is now.
Motorcycles have made a tremendous transition over the past 40 yrs and the new riders can't see that because they have no history of riding the classics in classic days.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:20 AM   #13
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TOTALLY respect and welcome what you're saying-- honest!-- BUT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rivercreep View Post
As of late, I keep reading more and more posts where Guys are complaining about comfort in general, and making comments about certain sizes/styles of Bikes not being suitable for hwy. travel or extended trips.
Not all bikes are designed to do certain things. Not all bikes designed to do one thing do it better than others.

If I want a highway-mile eating touring bike, I'm going to be interested in a good highway-mile eating touring bike. Ditto dirt, dual-sport, etc., etc. Different tools for different jobs. Hell, different bikes for different *moods*.

Quote:
What's maddening to me, is that I see the same things happening within motorcycling and those same cage drivers are finding their way here and whining about the pure nature of our vehicles.
There are plenty of "pure" motorcycles still available. There are "unpure" (?) motorcycles available as well. To each their own.

Quote:
Seriously! ...W.T.F.?...Wind noise, seat comfort, vibrations, lack of protection from the elements, ...and you want factory locations to plug in your electronc B.S. distraction devices here as well?!
21st century, man. Why be miserable if you don't have to be? Why be lost if you don't have to be?

Priests may be closest to God, but thank goodness not everyone has to be celibate to know grace.

Quote:
As a society in general, I feel we're using technology as a crutch to become lazier and lazier and watching motorcycles follow the same trends as cages I.M.H.O. this is NOT going to end well.
A defensible opinion. Me, I use technology to be safer and be more comfortable (ALSO a safety factor when riding atop fire-belching steel at 80 mph), allowing me to better enjoy my ride.

Quote:
Motorcycles are vehicles that require skill to operate and attention to your riding environment.
No different than cars. Or bicycles. Or... heck, I still need to watch where my feet go when I walk!

Quote:
The last thing I want to see is the pussification of our Bikes (which is already happening) that will allow anyone to bring their bad cage driving habits to our (insert your nomenclature, here)
Because motorcycle riders never had bad habits before bikes got "pussified"?

Quote:
You guys bitch about loud pipes and how they put your right to ride at risk (and I agree!) but what about increasingly bad riders who allow themselves to be distracted while riding who lack the skills necessary to actually ride and not turn themselves into 2 wheeled missles that can kill people.
Was there ever a golden age of motorcycling? Because plenty of people around these parts sure seem to remember one.

I started riding much too late, obviously I missed it, but I'd love to hear a year. Was it in 1975? 1955? 1925? How good were the bikes in this "golden age"?

How many riders died-- unnecessarily, I might suggest-- in this "golden age"?

How good were "cage" drivers in this "golden age"? Did they never turn left in front of bikes back then? Were they never distracted by radios or coffee or screaming kids jumping around in the backseat?

Throw out a year, throw out the models of bikes, and we can have an informed discussion. Otherwise, we'll just stay off your lawn .

Quote:
I'm curious how the ADV collective feels about the loss of appreciation for what motorcycling is about.
I haven't lost my appreciation for motorcycling. If anything, grows every day, with every new bike I add to my crowded driveway. I *love* my high-tech rides just as much as I love my low-tech ones. Telling me to choose between the two is like telling me to choose between my nail gun and my hammer-- both have their time and place.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:21 AM   #14
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The problem is: You completely misjudge "what motorcycling is about". No one ever stopped appreciating it.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:21 AM   #15
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Some might argue that riding a motorcycle is being lazy....its a "technology" that was developed to make travel easier and faster. Why not ride a bicycle?? or walk for that matter???

As technology advances we always seem to look back at the good old days when things were simpler. Its all relative. Future generations may look back at the EFI/ABS/TC bike as the good old days.....


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