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Old 06-24-2012, 11:16 PM   #1
Twin-shocker OP
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2T oil and mix ratios?

I wonder what 2T oil and mix ratios are being used by those riding 2T trials bikes? There seems to be an awful lot of confusion over this, with many people using low smoke autolube oils at the type or ratio's that should really only be used when fully synthetic PRE MIX ONLY oils are in use (80-100:1).

All JASO approved oils are low smoke, and most include up to 20% kerosene to thin the PIB additives used to reduce smoke, so clearly are not actually "fully synthetic" which is often claimed by manufacturers.

No problem at all using one of these oils as long as you dont mix any leaner than 50:1, other than the fact they are very thin and will not provide the same level of corrosion protection as a proper pre-mix only product, designed for use in competition machines.

Running 50:1 mix tends to clog exhaust systems pretty quickly, and throttle response isnt as good as with leaner mixes, so it seems a good idea to use a proper pre-mix only oil at 70-80:1 on air cooled bikes, and 80-100:1 on watercooled, as this will mean better performance and less need to service exhaust systems so regularly.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:08 AM   #2
motojunky
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I use Maxima Super M @ 64:1. Not a lot of logic behind my choice of oil or ratio. I used Maxima @ 40:1 in my dirt bikes mainly due to availability - every local shop carried it. I had no oil-related issues so it made sense to me to stick with Maxima in the trials bike. Like many folks new to trials bikes, I was scared of 80:1 - 100:1 type ratios so I went conservative with 64:1. It runs fine and I haven't had any reason to think about changing.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:34 AM   #3
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motojunky View Post
I use Maxima Super M @ 64:1. Not a lot of logic behind my choice of oil or ratio. I used Maxima @ 40:1 in my dirt bikes mainly due to availability - every local shop carried it. I had no oil-related issues so it made sense to me to stick with Maxima in the trials bike. Like many folks new to trials bikes, I was scared of 80:1 - 100:1 type ratios so I went conservative with 64:1. It runs fine and I haven't had any reason to think about changing.
I wont be the "last word" on this, everyone has opinions, I guess.

In my modern gasgas bikes, I run Castrol tts, 80:1, using a ratio rite cup to mix with. I DO NOT ride my 300cc Gasgas Raga Pro trials bikes, like most will ride a "dirt bike". I have done this since 2001. I have a good mechanic, who has had to fix things and he has never said "your cylinder" is showing signs of bad oil/fuel (aka lubrication/wear issues) knock on wood now.


Since the PRO model gasgas's trials bikes (since 03) the crank bearings are lubed via the transmission fluid, which is another reason you change the transmission oil VERY often... So, at least in my bikes, all you have is cylinder lubrication in a water-cooled engine.

In my air cooled bikes, I like to run at least 50:1 in those bikes, with the same oil. (this means it has more oil in the fuel).

Some run 50:1 in modern trials bikes, I dont think that is a problem, unless you start oil-fouling your plugs. so do what you wish, I think in that range... I know you should bias your gas:oil ratio by how or what you ride... If you tend to Motocross your trials bikes, then by golly use more oil in the gas, as in closer to 50:1 than 80:1.

Nice thing about trials bikes is, we're "idling" most of the day of riding, unlike other bikes and uses, where the bike will reach 1/2 to full rpms most of these same hours of riding, per day.

my Chainsaw, which when used is WFO most of the time I use it, will not take being mixed at 80:1, it likes a lot more oil because of how it is used. One chainsaw we had (old homelite) was 16:1 and lasted 25 years. new chainsaw is more like 32:1. my watercooled outboard motors like 50:1, since when you ride watercraft your duty cycles are usually wfo or near wfo most of the day. again it is a different duty the engine is being subjected too. Harder or more WFO the engine, the more oil you probably ought to use.

Sting32 screwed with this post 06-25-2012 at 10:41 AM
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
I wont be the "last word" on this, everyone has opinions, I guess.

In my modern gasgas bikes, I run Castrol tts, 80:1, using a ratio rite cup to mix with. I DO NOT ride my 300cc Gasgas Raga Pro trials bikes, like most will ride a "dirt bike". I have done this since 2001. I have a good mechanic, who has had to fix things and he has never said "your cylinder" is showing signs of bad oil/fuel (aka lubrication/wear issues) knock on wood now.


Since the PRO model gasgas's trials bikes (since 03) the crank bearings are lubed via the transmission fluid, which is another reason you change the transmission oil VERY often... So, at least in my bikes, all you have is cylinder lubrication in a water-cooled engine.

In my air cooled bikes, I like to run at least 50:1 in those bikes, with the same oil. (this means it has more oil in the fuel).

Some run 50:1 in modern trials bikes, I dont think that is a problem, unless you start oil-fouling your plugs. so do what you wish, I think in that range... I know you should bias your gas:oil ratio by how or what you ride... If you tend to Motocross your trials bikes, then by golly use more oil in the gas, as in closer to 50:1 than 80:1.

Nice thing about trials bikes is, we're "idling" most of the day of riding, unlike other bikes and uses, where the bike will reach 1/2 to full rpms most of these same hours of riding, per day.

my Chainsaw, which when used is WFO most of the time I use it, will not take being mixed at 80:1, it likes a lot more oil because of how it is used. One chainsaw we had (old homelite) was 16:1 and lasted 25 years. new chainsaw is more like 32:1. my watercooled outboard motors like 50:1, since when you ride watercraft your duty cycles are usually wfo or near wfo most of the day. again it is a different duty the engine is being subjected too. Harder or more WFO the engine, the more oil you probably ought to use.
This.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:46 AM   #5
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Caution is needed when selecting a 2T oil thats likely to be used at very lean mix ratios, as anything thats JASO rated will be a low smoke type, and in most cases will be diluted with kerosene to thin the PIB additives.

Main things to remember here is that trials bikes will run fine on 80-100:1 mix ratios, but its best to use fully synthetic oils, which are supplied in containers marked "Pre-Mix Only"
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:11 PM   #6
motojunky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Caution is needed when selecting a 2T oil thats likely to be used at very lean mix ratios, as anything thats JASO rated will be a low smoke type, and in most cases will be diluted with kerosene to thin the PIB additives.

Main things to remember here is that trials bikes will run fine on 80-100:1 mix ratios, but its best to use fully synthetic oils, which are supplied in containers marked "Pre-Mix Only"
Maxima is not full-synthetic but is marked "premix only." Seems like it has been working fine at my conservative (maybe overkill) ratio.

http://www.maximausa.com/shopping/in...products_id=15

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Old 06-28-2012, 06:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motojunky View Post
Maxima is not full-synthetic but is marked "premix only." Seems like it has been working fine at my conservative (maybe overkill) ratio.

http://www.maximausa.com/shopping/in...products_id=15


I have been using the Maxima 927 oil at 80-1 since I got the bike earlier this year, do you think the M a better oil to use for a 2001 Gas Gas 321TXT ? I am using ethanol free 93 octane.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:28 PM   #8
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Semi synthetic is fine, but maybe not a great idea to run it at 80-100:1 ratios, which really require a full synthetic pre-mix only oil.

Advantages of using the full synthetic pre-mix only at a leaner ratio, is much cleaner running, better throttle response, and a lot less gunge in the exhaust system.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:27 PM   #9
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Maxima makes Formula K2 which is full synthetic and also the oil Ryan Young sells on his site.

http://www.maximausa.com/shopping/in...8do5cvfac3fn97

I have been using Ipone Samourai Racing lately and it runs well and recommends 100:1 for trials on the bottle. The bike came with Amsoil Dominator in the tank and it fouled the plug quickly and several times but since I switched it has run perfectly.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:45 PM   #10
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Any good full synthetic is fine. I've run my past few GG's at 100:1 Amsoil saber and the top ends look great.

If your concerned about top end condition, jet correctly, and make sure you let the bike warm up (at LEAST till the fan comes on) before winding it up. I see so many riders start up there bike and rev it to the moon to clean it out. Can you say Cold Seize.....
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:45 PM   #11
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Big problem with 2T oils is that most manufacturers make products which are dual purpose, in that they can be used in autolube and pre-mix bikes (at 50:1 or below).

Dual purpose products are fine at lower mix ratios, but will not lubricate as well as a proper full synthetic pre-mix only oil at the type of ratios ideal for trials applications (80-100:1), due to having up to 20% kerosene added, in order to thin the oil enough to make it possible to use in autolube systems.

Best possible oil for very lean trials ratios is a fully synthetic pre mix only race product, such as Castrol XR77.

If anyone is using an oil not marked fully synthetic, pre-mix only, its safest to stick to 50:1 mix, as almost certainly this is going to be a dual purpose product, and not ideally suited to pre-mix use at very lean mix ratios.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:38 PM   #12
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I have used this stuff since the mid 80s in all my air cooled motors.. Bellray MC1
http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-mc-1-r...-2t-engine-oil
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:11 AM   #13
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MC1 seems a very good choice for trials use, certainly much better than any of the dual purpose oils, which many people seem to think are fully synthetic, and ok for use at 80-100:1 mix ratios.
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
MC1 seems a very good choice for trials use, certainly much better than any of the dual purpose oils, which many people seem to think are fully synthetic, and ok for use at 80-100:1 mix ratios.
Shocker...

You are posting and posting (and reposting) as if the rest of us are fking dummies.

Do you have some "imperical" testing and failure rates that you have done on water and air cooled trials bikes (or any bikes or 2 stroke engines for that matter) for the past 40+ years, that over rides "in the field proof" that more or less exists with litterally hundreds of people, doing it just like what I, pete and others do? WITHOUT ISSUE!

My god man, you read a label and you act as if they aren't trying to convince you that thier product is the one and only, just like verizon tries to tell you they got "fastest 4g" or "apple doesnt get viruses..." it is bullshit & sales pitch/story, and THEY know it. At the least, a very thin thread to hang a shirt off my back on.

As it has been stated time and time again in these "oil premix threads"
Quallity oils, from places that can't afford (to lose customers) or people to just be mad because they ended up with "SHIT" oils, for thier investment (aka, Motorcycles).

I really wouldn't recommend that you buy the cheapest dollar general oils, to mix at 100:1 in your 8 or 9 thousand dollar Trials bikes, as then you might cause yourself problems, but I dunno.. I run walmart cheapest in chainsaws and weed-eaters, and old lawnboys... But, one lawnboy ran forever on that junk, until someone put fuel in, that was NOT premixed.

Personally, I am scared of 100:1, and 80:1 smokes just a tiny bit now and then, even with smoke less TTS synthetic, so I feel that Im being more conservative than some are. But I still believe there are enough people, pro's and others that will run 100:1. I do it at 80:1, feel more than adequate. BTW, cleaning out silencer, still shows plenty of oil in there, which means it was wasted by the engine... Nuff said I think

So Shocker,
really you need to post about 500 more times about the real thing to be worried about, that someone will accidently put non premixed gas into a 2 stroke. That my fellow ADVrider, is more likely than mixing 100:1 with good brands of synthetic oils, to cause you trouble, riding a Trails Bike, in Trials bike conditions.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:51 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
Shocker...

You are posting and posting (and reposting) as if the rest of us are fking dummies.

Do you have some "imperical" testing and failure rates that you have done on water and air cooled trials bikes (or any bikes or 2 stroke engines for that matter) for the past 40+ years, that over rides "in the field proof" that more or less exists with litterally hundreds of people, doing it just like what I, pete and others do? WITHOUT ISSUE!

My god man, you read a label and you act as if they aren't trying to convince you that thier product is the one and only, just like verizon tries to tell you they got "fastest 4g" or "apple doesnt get viruses..." it is bullshit & sales pitch/story, and THEY know it. At the least, a very thin thread to hang a shirt off my back on.

As it has been stated time and time again in these "oil premix threads"
Quallity oils, from places that can't afford (to lose customers) or people to just be mad because they ended up with "SHIT" oils, for thier investment (aka, Motorcycles).

I really wouldn't recommend that you buy the cheapest dollar general oils, to mix at 100:1 in your 8 or 9 thousand dollar Trials bikes, as then you might cause yourself problems, but I dunno.. I run walmart cheapest in chainsaws and weed-eaters, and old lawnboys... But, one lawnboy ran forever on that junk, until someone put fuel in, that was NOT premixed.

Personally, I am scared of 100:1, and 80:1 smokes just a tiny bit now and then, even with smoke less TTS synthetic, so I feel that Im being more conservative than some are. But I still believe there are enough people, pro's and others that will run 100:1. I do it at 80:1, feel more than adequate. BTW, cleaning out silencer, still shows plenty of oil in there, which means it was wasted by the engine... Nuff said I think

So Shocker,
really you need to post about 500 more times about the real thing to be worried about, that someone will accidently put non premixed gas into a 2 stroke. That my fellow ADVrider, is more likely than mixing 100:1 with good brands of synthetic oils, to cause you trouble, riding a Trails Bike, in Trials bike conditions.


I think anyone who chooses to use an autolube oil in a pre-mix trials bike, at a mix-ratio of 80-100:1 probably isnt aware of the fact the autolube oil (TTS is an autolube oil) contains around 20% kerosene, so in reality the mix is far leaner than the expected 80-100:1.

There is no real advantage that I can see in using an autolube rather than a pre-mix oil, but by the same token if a bike runs well on the really lean mixes that come about when using autolube oils, then there seems no reason to change to a pre-mix type.
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