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Old 08-25-2012, 07:24 PM   #1
skysailor OP
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Best Bear Gun?

Being that I'm in Canada (read Granny State, as far as hand guns go) it has to be a long gun or shotgun.
I do a lot of hiking and biking in bear country. I don't hunt. I would only shoot anything to avoid being eaten!
What do all you gun savvy Yanks recommend for a defensive bear gun? I know if I was hunting bear, I'd use something along the lines of a .300 WSM with a big old scope, but what's best if the bear is hunting ME?
Lyle
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:29 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skysailor View Post
Being that I'm in Canada (read Granny State, as far as hand guns go) it has to be a long gun or shotgun.
I do a lot of hiking and biking in bear country. I don't hunt. I would only shoot anything to avoid being eaten!
What do all you gun savvy Yanks recommend for a defensive bear gun? I know if I was hunting bear, I'd use something along the lines of a .300 WSM with a big old scope, but what's best if the bear is hunting ME?
Lyle

Marlin 45-70 1895 guide gun.



It's what I have for my bear gun. It's a freak'n cannon, easy(isn) to shoot well and fast, plus compact for easy carry.

I love mine, even if I'm Canadian.

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Old 08-25-2012, 07:37 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Weirdo View Post
Marlin 45-70 1895 guide gun.



It's what I have for my bear gun. It's a freak'n cannon, easy(isn) to shoot well and fast, plus compact for easy carry.

I love mine.
Sans scope b/c any encounter,where you need to shoot to protect your self, will likely be at close range and it is a lot easier to aquire the target at close range with open sights.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:43 PM   #4
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The Guide Gun is a good choice, and pretty cool. OTOH, a pump or semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs or alternating slugs and 00 Buck would be equally effective as bear protection, maybe even better. Since you're not going to be hunting you're not overly concerned about long-range performance.
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:02 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by HardCase View Post
The Guide Gun is a good choice, and pretty cool. OTOH, a pump or semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs or alternating slugs and 00 Buck would be equally effective as bear protection, maybe even better. Since you're not going to be hunting you're not overly concerned about long-range performance.
From all I have heard there is pretty much no such thing as shooting an attacking grizzly? Your as good as dead? Anyone ever successfully done it? How many have tried and failed?
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:07 PM   #6
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From all I have heard there is pretty much no such thing as shooting an attacking grizzly? Your as good as dead? Anyone ever successfully done it? How many have tried and failed?
I recall a recent story, Idaho I believe. Kid hunting with his Dad and another adult. Kid slightly apart from the adults. They here a shot or two go and investigate and find one live teenager, one dead bear. IIRC it was with a 44 magnum revolver.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:19 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by HardCase View Post
The Guide Gun is a good choice, and pretty cool. OTOH, a pump or semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs or alternating slugs and 00 Buck would be equally effective as bear protection, maybe even better. Since you're not going to be hunting you're not overly concerned about long-range performance.
Ditto X1000. Because you won't have time to aim and the 12ga with 1oz slugs is flat devastating. But make the 00 buck 000 buck and have a couple 1oz slugs first.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:46 AM   #8
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I have no personal experience with the laser dot type sights, but I have a question for you guys - those two walking patrol - if they have to make an entry into one of those dark houses, will their daylight adapated eyes work well enough to see the dots? I've never really played with lasers in daylight much so have little notion of their effectiveness - which is I presume why there is also a backup sight.

Thinking generally about carrying a pump-gun - I guess if you have it slung on the backpack, minimal attachments would make it a lot faster on the "draw" I should think? Makes that Canadian shotgun look pretty ideal for that purpose. You guys use a scabbard strapped to pack or put it under pack straps in some way?
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by fxstbiluigi View Post
Sans scope b/c any encounter,where you need to shoot to protect your self, will likely be at close range and it is a lot easier to aquire the target at close range with open sights.
Yup, what he said. No scope, just iron sites.

Four in the tube and one in the kitchen. Hammer at half cock and even if you don't hit your target, anything downwind of the business end of this thing will be bleeding out of at least of a couple of orifices.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:59 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Weirdo View Post
Marlin 45-70 1895 guide gun.



It's what I have for my bear gun. It's a freak'n cannon, easy(isn) to shoot well and fast, plus compact for easy carry.

I love mine, even if I'm Canadian.
I'm just a little person and I carry a Marlin .45-70 guide version too. It is easy to shoot and very acurate. I love that gun. Sometimes however, a rifle is not the most appropriate gun for my work. I work in the mountains in the Alaska Range. In this case, the terrain is very steep and hands are sometimes needed to climb. Bears can climb amazingngly fast. Ususally I carry a .454 Casul. It's another cannon. Mine is ported to decrease the kick (especailly with bear loads). Since my hands are small, I have changed the grip so my fingers can easily reach the trigger.

It is really important to practice shooting and to understand bear behaviors.

Bear spray is not my favorite tool. One of my geologists just sprayed herself in the face with the stuff. Her partner had to haze a bear and then go to her rescue. Pretty silly.
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:35 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Weirdo View Post
Marlin 45-70 1895 guide gun.



It's what I have for my bear gun. It's a freak'n cannon, easy(isn) to shoot well and fast, plus compact for easy carry.

I love mine, even if I'm Canadian.
+1

Plus http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

My buddy bought Garrett 45-70's, and killed two full grown wild hogs from the side (through the plate oat least one!) with one shot. I'm not shitting you - I was there with my Marlin lever-action .357 Magnum.

Both hogs fell from one shot.

"PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS
The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.
Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
- Randy Garrett" http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
+1

Plus http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

My buddy bought Garrett 45-70's, and killed two full grown wild hogs from the side (through the plate oat least one!) with one shot. I'm not shitting you - I was there with my Marlin lever-action .357 Magnum.

Both hogs fell from one shot.

"PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS
The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.
Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
- Randy Garrett" http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html
The reason, at a given point, higher velocity results in less penetration is, at the molecular level, the higher speed results in higher heat build up, due to the molecules not having time to get out of the way, so to speak, and resulting in higher resistance to the projectile. Hope that makes sense.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:15 PM   #13
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I saw one of these today at the local sporting goods store. Looks like a winner.

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...-tactical.aspx


Quote:
8+1 Capacity
ProBore choke system includes both IC and Tactical Extended Choke Tubes
Oversized bolt release button and bolt release
Oversized trigger guard for easy operation when wearing gloves
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:54 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by YOUNZ View Post
The reason, at a given point, higher velocity results in less penetration is, at the molecular level, the higher speed results in higher heat build up, due to the molecules not having time to get out of the way, so to speak, and resulting in higher resistance to the projectile. Hope that makes sense.
Nope, not really - but I'm not saying you're wrong... just that while I usually understand scientific explanations to some degree, the building up of heat equating to less penetration isn't clicking this morning. Obviously something is, or some number of things are, to blame for lower penetration... Thank you for the explanation though. Eventually I'll use that to search for a better understanding of the phenomena.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:09 PM   #15
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The reason, at a given point, higher velocity results in less penetration is, at the molecular level, the higher speed results in higher heat build up, due to the molecules not having time to get out of the way, so to speak, and resulting in higher resistance to the projectile. Hope that makes sense.
Heat build up, resulting in "expansion" of projectile and the resisting material [bear meat] resulting in less travel.
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