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Old 10-31-2012, 07:24 AM   #1
Taelan28 OP
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Stuff to irk you.

I was at the ducati dealer asking questions to the owner. He was as helpful as a guy who counts money could be. He was nice too, but some of the things he said kind of irked me.

We were discussing motorcyles (of course) and he said people who ride harleys are riding toys. They cant turn, they're slow, and useless pieces of flash. I should believe him because he rode a harley for 15 years and now he never wants to ride it again... actually that didnt irk me, but i thought it was funny.

What did irk me was later on he was praising European made bikes. They are a work of science that americans cannot manufacture. (maybe he meant dont manufacture as his english was iffy). He said that the harleys were pretty much the same parts as my daelim daystar in terms of quality. Now I really dont know jack shit about motorcycles compared to you guys, but I dont think HD would sell bikes at the price they do and use some dog shit parts.

Even the mirrors on the ducati were tested to have 0% distortion whereas a harley would have 19%... Its an effin mirror, there's not much science or technology involved in making a flat reflective surface.

This Panigale is made from science (ok my memory might be taking liberty with what he meant at this point), this carbon fiber, is all the highest quality material (implying it such material can only be european). Chinese, american and Korean companies can make a motorcycle but they cannot create a comprehensive high perfomance machine with such design and materials. You see this plastic on the panigale? Its dupont plastic specially made for this bike.... Really dude? Americans are unable to design such a bike but an american company supplies the material for it.

I hate on my home nation of America more than most, and to be fair again this guy wasn't directly hating on America, so much as he made it come off as American companies have not and are incapable of producing such a fine bike which is a sneaky way of dispensing the haterade. I gotta question this guy's intelligence. American companies produce software and CPUs the world uses, our passenger jets fly all over the world. The world relies on our GPS systems, which used out rockets to get into space. An american discovered/invented carbon fiber and then refined it to be a viable material decades ago. And just to be clear I dont think American products are superior, my point is that developed nations are equally capable of developing high end machines, and further, not fully developed nations such as india and thailand are capable of manufacturing them.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:34 AM   #2
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when the rubber hits the road, it's the quality of the experience that matters, not what the fenders are made of. Obviously many Americans prefer the Harley experience to the Ducati experience. Carbon fiber and desmo valves really don't mean much when the spped limit is 55mph, however comfy ergos and a nice sound makes for a sweet ride.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:34 AM   #3
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You should have asked him why Ducati can't make a fuel tank that will last more than a couple of years.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:40 AM   #4
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Forgot to mention that he thought the L twin and Boxers were out of the league of the americans. Thats when I thought this dude was off his damn rocker. Its piston technology that over a century old. Im not sure why BMW is the only company with a boxer engine but I doubt its because no one knows how to build it.

You're right, it really doesnt matter when the speed limit is 55. He knocked my bike a little bit saying the experience on a ducati cant compare (and it probably cant if I had more time to ride a nice bike), but when he said that all I could think about was getting from point A to B. I suppose if I had a $100,000+ salary I'd be spoutin off too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josephvman View Post
You should have asked him why Ducati can't make a fuel tank that will last more than a couple of years.
OOOOOOHhhhh SNAP!

What happens? Does the plastic crack? Does it rust inside? Serious question.

Taelan28 screwed with this post 10-31-2012 at 07:46 AM
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:01 AM   #5
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Sounds like your typical drank the kool aid dyed in the wool (brand X/y/z) sales man.. Every once in a while, I come across a guy like that.. the bikes that he sells are the best bikes ever... bla bla bla...and can never acknowledge that other bikes on the market have any merit or quality or reliability.. bottom line, HD sells what, upwards of 300,000 bikes a year?.. if the bikes were complete garbage, eventually word gets around... and they sell them for what the market will bear. Anyway, you'll also find this type of salesman at HD, BMW and other dealerships.. it's pretty funny to listen to their garbage.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:25 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelan28 View Post
Forgot to mention that he thought the L twin and Boxers were out of the league of the americans. Thats when I thought this dude was off his damn rocker. Its piston technology that over a century old. Im not sure why BMW is the only company with a boxer engine but I doubt its because no one knows how to build it.

You're right, it really doesnt matter when the speed limit is 55. He knocked my bike a little bit saying the experience on a ducati cant compare (and it probably cant if I had more time to ride a nice bike), but when he said that all I could think about was getting from point A to B. I suppose if I had a $100,000+ salary I'd be spoutin off too.
OOOOOOHhhhh SNAP!

What happens? Does the plastic crack? Does it rust inside? Serious question.

Ural makes a boxer.

the people at the local BMW/Ducati dealership are the same way. I guess if you're going to pay way too much for a product, you have to be able to convince yourself that it's worth the difference.

As for me, I lustedf after BMW for many years. Finally got one, kept it two years. That cured me. I still like BMW, just not any better than I like anything else. All designs have their merits.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelan28 View Post
What happens? Does the plastic crack? Does it rust inside? Serious question.
The basic problem (yes, it is a serious problem) is that Ducati and a few other manufacturers decided that a plastic paintable fuel tank would be a good idea. The polymer which was chosen by the supplier (Acerbis) is PA6, and is 'raw' on the inside meaning that there is no internal coating. In nearly every sales market, liquid gasoline fuels have had ethanol as part of their content for over 15 years. The problem with the PA6 as a fuel tank material is that ethanol absorbs humidity (water) which is then heavier than gasoline and drops to the bottom of the tank (does not evaporate out as it would if it were on top). The water is then ABSORBED into the PA6 and the tank proceeds to expand.

Keep in mind that Ducati, and its supplier Acerbis had been making gas tanks for every global market and should have been fully knowledgable about gasoline content in these respective markets. Due diligence and proper certification would have brought the concern to light during any general R&D process.

The tank deformation affected 50,000 US Ducati motorcycles including Sport Classics, 848s, the entire S2R and S4R Monster line, Streetfighters, to name an incomplete list. The tanks could leak out the back near the fuel pump assembly onto the top of the engine. The tanks could also deform and raise the tank off the frame which was designed to support the tank. There was never an NHTSA recall formally issued despite this being a fuel related (and safety) concern.

Ducati chose to indirectly deal with the problem, relying on word of mouth and internet 'awareness'. The affected tanks were replaced through a dealer reviewing them, a local rep approving the replacement and generally all being quiet. The replacements were also manufactured of PA6, the same material as the deforming tanks. Some customers have had to get their tanks replaced 2 or 3 times.

There was a formal lawsuit brought against Ducati NA, where the settlement was to replace tanks if deemed necessary, as well as modifications to the bike. These included limiting steering angle (increasing steering stops), adding a bracket to the tank itself (which would be visible), supplying an alternate seat (shorter if the tank was growing lengthwise) etc. In other words, Ducati was attending to the situation by changing everything BUT the gas tank and the faulty polymer.

Many owners of these Ducatis have been extremely soured by the situation. Even enthusiasts and long time Duc owners ask WTF.

To be fair, KTM, Triumph and Harley Davidson all had similar problems due to PA6 paintable fuel tanksmade by Acerbis (the supplier for all of these). I believe at this point, Acerbis is no longer.

So, how's that for 'European engineering prowess'?
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josephvman View Post
You should have asked him why Ducati can't make a fuel tank that will last more than a couple of years.
ZING!

Or a sportbike engine that isn't failing main bearings. Or chrome flaking off rockers. Or popping voltage regulators. You know, like these are all 'scientifically designed and new technology'.

Then again, BMW has their fair share of issues, as do any OEM. It's been posted that you need to do your research before tolerating a dealer like the OP has. Know what you're getting into, and know the possible mods and upgrades which may be needed.

On the riders themselves, to be honest we all have to admit there's a weird and interesting divisiveness between US/European/sportbike/cruiser crowds. What I think we all agree upon is the uneducated, blindly stereotypical nature of some riders. Squids are just as much a pain in the ass with an open I4 header as Harley riding pirates sometimes. BMW riders and their astronaut / conspicuity suits populating Starbuck$. Dual sport guys looking to jump a fence when they get a chance. Chopped cafe bikes and the hipster 50s groove. Nothing wrong with the 'look' of any of them but some also draw unnecessary attention because of their actions. Comes back to common consideration for everyone.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:29 AM   #9
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There's stupid blind 'brandism' in every group. Harley and BMW, Apple and Android, Democrats and Republicans, once you start talking to one of 'the converted' you're not going to get anything remotely resembling the truth from them. That sounds like what you've got with this guy.

I say all that from the perspective of someone that absolutely loves European bikes and has no interest in any current Asian or American bikes. That's not because I have anything against them, I'd love to buy (for example) an American made bike that both spoke to me aesthetically and performed technically, but for now that doesn't exist. To me, currently the European manufacturers are the leaders. They have all the reliability of the asian bikes (this has not always been the case) but still keeping the design abilities they've always been known for. If that changes though and one of the others manufacturers makes something that appeal to me, I'll certainly give it a chance.

Having said that, I don't think that Harley's or the Japanese bikes are 'crap'. Harley has probably the best fit and finish of any bike (at it's price point) available. The chrome is beautiful and their paint jobs are quite nice for factory jobs. I think they pay too much attention to style and not enough to substance though and as such I find their bikes gutless and uninteresting. The Jap bikes are technically quite sound but to me they are uninspired and cheap looking. I don't 'lust' after any of them, I don't loose myself in the details of any of the designs, even though technically they are quite good.

Now these are all my opinions and as such, very much like an asshole. But I'd never say that Harleys were cheap crap, or that Jap bikes were terrible. Neither of those statements is remotely true. I also don't think it is necessary to talk down one brand (or country) in order to complement another. So take what anyone says that denigrates everything else with a handful of salt. You don't need to talk down a good product to exalt a great one.

Feel free to buy a bike from this guy, but don't buy everything he's sayin'
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:42 AM   #10
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He's a salesman. Maybe a little more hardcore than most, but still a salesman.

His job is to convince you his product is superior to all the rest, and get you to buy it.

Well, sounds like he turned you off, so he needs to adjust his spiel a little when it comes to Americans. Probably works just fine for the natives.

Truth is not an issue, sales are.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:44 AM   #11
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Boxer

Honda has made a very popular boxer for the past 37 years. Many of those years it was made in USA.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:39 AM   #12
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Those Ducati's are perfect now that they edited the owners manuals to extend the time between valve adjustments.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Those Ducati's are perfect now that they edited the owners manuals to extend the time between valve adjustments.

Only the Italians could do that.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:37 AM   #14
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I hate guys like that. I usualy start talking crap about their bike and pissing them off. I am not brand loyal. Heck I am about to pick up a 2011 Ninja 1000.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:58 AM   #15
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Mine hasn't changed .0015 thou in over 5 years.
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