ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-30-2012, 11:23 PM   #1
IrishJohn OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Location: St Louis MO
Oddometer: 71
Countersteering confusion : (

OK - this might be a really stupid thread/questions to ask. I learned to ride a bycycle at age 8 or so and never had problems swerving or anything. I got a step through Honda 50 at 17 and never had a problem going around bends or swerving etc. I got a Kymco People 50 five years ago and never had a problem etc. Then I went on the 'Riders Edge' course for new motorcyclists a couple of months ago and have been confused as all heck since about Countersteering. I currently have (and the reason for going on the course) a Suzuki TU250 and have had no problems going around corners/bends etc - but I keep seeing posts and threads and things that say things like 'If you don't UNDERSTAND countersteering you will never really be able to swerve in an emergency' and things like that.
I DO understand that you do not 'steer' the bike and that the 'leaning' is not really 'steering' it either - but what confuses the hell out of me is this :
Should I be able to make a CONCIOUS move of the handlebars to the opposite way I want to go or should I just continue as I am - having no problems in the turns etc without fully 'understanding' how I get around them????

Thank you in advance for any answers you may give
__________________
Irish John
IrishJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 11:27 PM   #2
DAKEZ
Beastly Adventurer
 
DAKEZ's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: OR
Oddometer: 19,697
This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.
__________________
“Watch out for everything bigger than you, they have the "right of weight"
Bib

DAKEZ screwed with this post 12-31-2012 at 12:00 AM
DAKEZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 11:29 PM   #3
Boon Booni
Red Clay Halo
 
Boon Booni's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Richmond, Va
Oddometer: 13,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
He didn't mention anything about the gyroscopes.
__________________
Where the fuck...
Where the fuck is the bike?
You gotta be shitting me.
Where the fuck is the road?
Boon Booni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 11:50 PM   #4
PeterW
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Gold Coast
Oddometer: 2,567
Concious really only helps when you realize you are going perhaps a tad too fast into the next corner. Then KNOWING that countersteering will lean the bike and turn it a bit quicker can be a life saver.

Otherwise - instinctive.

Pete
PeterW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:10 PM   #5
PT Rider
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: NW Washington State
Oddometer: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterW View Post
Concious really only helps when you realize you are going perhaps a tad too fast into the next corner. Then KNOWING that countersteering will lean the bike and turn it a bit quicker can be a life saver.
YES! Countersteer harder to turn sharper. Necessary when in a turn a bit too fast or when there's a need to tighten the turn to avoid an obstruction.

Intentional, practiced left-right or right-left counter steering is the quickest way to avoid a hazard suddenly seen when riding straight. Your body will do what is has practiced when an emergency arises, not what you think ought'a be done but you haven't trained your body (trained the brain, actually) by repeated practicing.
__________________
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau
PT Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 09:18 AM   #6
BanjoBoy
Studly Adventurer
 
BanjoBoy's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Northern CA
Oddometer: 876
With a 250 or bicycle yer counter steering, but it's so light you don't even know it. When ya ride an FJR, you definitely know yer counter steering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.
/thread
__________________
2007 FJR1300
2007 FZ6 (Dirt bike)
BanjoBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 09:41 AM   #7
KG6BWS
Studly Adventurer
 
KG6BWS's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Canyon Country, Ca
Oddometer: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by BanjoBoy View Post
With a 250 or bicycle yer counter steering, but it's so light you don't even know it. When ya ride an FJR, you definitely know yer counter steering. /thread
Noticed the same thing when I put my F650GS in the shop, and rode an F800ST loaner for a couple days. Holy shit but the steering felt like it was locked!!!
__________________
"But I swear, a woman's breast is the hardest rock that the Almighty ever made on this earth, and I can find no sign on it." Bear Claw Chris Lapp

Justin
01 F650GS Dakar
KG6BWS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 10:39 AM   #8
Mr_Gone
FIGJAM
 
Mr_Gone's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Mountain Home, AR
Oddometer: 7,854
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not to be until Tuesday.
I was hoping we could postpone this until Friday because of the holiday.
__________________
Behold the field in which I grow my fucks | Feast thine eyes upon it and see that it is barren!
Mr_Gone is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 12:22 AM   #9
Dream Rider
Servant
 
Dream Rider's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Anywhere in the Northwest
Oddometer: 192
counter steer

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.

Dakez has it right. This is all you need to know. push left go left push right, go right. I know a lot of good pilots that can't bleed acft brakes but they do know push down slow down. Have fun.
Dream Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 06:33 AM   #10
markk53
jack of all trades...
 
markk53's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Delaware Ohio
Oddometer: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.
Obviously knowing the mechanics didn't help much in this case.

I never thought about or conciously tried to use countersteering until my brother brought it up to me related to bicycles. The old "try to go left by turning left" routine. Interesting. Then I completely let it all go out of my mind. You see, I had done fine riding bicycles and then motorcycles for the previous roughly 15 years (motorcycles for the previous 7). I had done okay riding my trials bike, flat tracker, and then motocrosser so I didn't really see much use in screwing with what was already well lubed and working fine.

That is what the OP should do - forget all the "science and mechanics" and go about with what they obviously learned with bicycling. Single track is single track, the physics are the same, just a lighter vehicle with skinnier tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.
.
That is my biggest issue with all the countersteering crap. Simply learn what happens then go practice a bit to ingrain it to one's skills. Let the physics and all go by the wayside when riding. I have yet to see any discussion clearly lay out all of the variables since there are probably hundreds, based on geometry (not just steering, but tires and all) and actual physics like laws of motion and such. It just gets freaking stupid. Arguements for those who "know" and confusion for those who are new.

If you have to actually conciously think about countersteering when riding, you are either a very VERY new rider or you have a serious problem you need to remedy through practicing steering until you DON'T have to think about it in a concious fashion. It is all about having the actions and reactions occur instinctively.

OP, forget the science and ride.
__________________
Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

Mark - klx678
95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
markk53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 07:33 PM   #11
DarthJ
Gnarly Adventurer
 
DarthJ's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Hell Paso
Oddometer: 151
[quote=markk53;20524064
op, forget the science and ride.[/quote]

+100!
DarthJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 05:59 PM   #12
Coachgeo
Diesel Adventurer
 
Coachgeo's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: NOW: Dayton OH area recent past WAS: North TX
Oddometer: 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.
Took a while reading this thread to understand this. I new it intuitively; yet still took further reading for it to dawn on me why I was still slightly confused. It's because the above way of saying it didn't match science or reality not because it's wrong; ......... but cause I was reading his wording different than he intended it be read. It read to me as

look left, push left......... your now going left
Look right, push right..... your now going right
Look look etc.

of course that made no sense because push left side of bar is done in the 99% of time one is in a right turn.

So maybe it's best said initially as below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INITIALLY said/instructed
Turning Left: Loooook left, *some push left to setup lean for turn (AKA counter steer to lean left), then steer yourself to left
Turning Right: Loooook right, *some push right to setup lean for turn (AKA counter steer to lean right), then steer yourself to right

*counter steer is onset of turn and only momentary. more abrupt the counter steer, more abrupt/quick the lean will be. Quicker lean allows for quicker turn such as for evasive maneuver
Once that is clearly understood; thennnnn shorten it; for quicker brain processing when in action, to something like how Dakez and others put it. Say?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by short version
look Left, Push left, Steer Left. KEEP LOOKING LEFT!
Look Right, Push Right, Steer Right, KEEP LOOKING RIGHT!

EMPHASIS: Look through the turn.
Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.

Coachgeo screwed with this post 03-23-2013 at 07:14 PM
Coachgeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 07:21 PM   #13
Coachgeo
Diesel Adventurer
 
Coachgeo's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: NOW: Dayton OH area recent past WAS: North TX
Oddometer: 516
If I get this right......... short rake combined with heavy bike means MORE counter steer. Thus to get a good visual........ view pig of a bike doing turns. Such as this police bike vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yotsgbjWqAI
Coachgeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 08:21 PM   #14
KX50002
NooB, my ass
 
KX50002's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: NEPA
Oddometer: 1,808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
Took a while reading this thread to understand this. I new it intuitively; yet still took further reading for it to dawn on me why I was still slightly confused. It's because the above way of saying it didn't match science or reality not because it's wrong; ......... but cause I was reading his wording different than he intended it be read. It read to me as

look left, push left......... your now going left
Look right, push right..... your now going right
Look look etc.

of course that made no sense because push left side of bar is done in the 99% of time one is in a right turn.

So maybe it's best said initially as below.



Once that is clearly understood; thennnnn shorten it; for quicker brain processing when in action, to something like how Dakez and others put it. Say?:
I don't understand. I thought DAKEZ had explained it clearly, What do yoiu mean by "Steer left"? On my bikes you push left to turn left, the harder you push, the more you turn. simple.
__________________
SOTGMOTT Some Of The Gear Most Of The Time
KX50002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 08:12 AM   #15
Coachgeo
Diesel Adventurer
 
Coachgeo's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: NOW: Dayton OH area recent past WAS: North TX
Oddometer: 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by KX50002 View Post
I don't understand. I thought DAKEZ had explained it clearly, What do yoiu mean by "Steer left"? On my bikes you push left to turn left, the harder you push, the more you turn. simple.
. Isn't language nutty. My guess is we must be "pushing" different things and the description is vague enough for both of us to think the other person is crazy. What are you interpreting "push" to mean? Read it like below myself

Left turn:
DAKEZ's PUSH LEFT- For me that reads "push" with the "left arm" on the handle bar. This means you have now cocked the wheel to the right. Assumed this to be DAKEZ's way of saying first you must counter steer (slight right) at the onset of a left turn. This counter steer happened because momentary left arm push caused a right turn of handle bars leaning the bike to the left preparing the forces needed to execute a turn to the left

. STEER LEFT- The act of "steering left" which I slipped in there to replace the vague wording of "go left". This is the second phase of a left turn. It is what you do after counter steer/push left (arm); which was the first phase . Steer left describes what the arms and body do. AKA you push the handle bar with the right arm and pull in with the left cocking the wheel to the left thus turning to the left.

That being said......... it could also be described as

Left turn (abbreviated version)
LOOK LEFT, push left , push right

Left turn ( cliff note version)
LOOK LEFT, push left arm (counter steer), push right arm (steer handle bar into left turn)

Coachgeo screwed with this post 03-25-2013 at 09:41 AM
Coachgeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 06:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014