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Old 12-21-2010, 07:59 PM   #151
mrbreeze
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Originally Posted by Mr.Goose View Post

The good news is it will help the brand retain value better than the rest - which if you've been watching the rest of the brands in the market - are slipping lots.


It seems to me, the more it costs, the more you are likely to lose...
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:48 AM   #152
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not exactly - example:

my father drives a 2X4 chevy avalanche in PA - dealer had to get one from SC or FL to satisfy him - long story.

he's coming up on 100K and might want to trade/sell it, guess how much less his truck is worth compared to all the other 4X4 equipped trucks in his area?

A loaded BMW will always be worth more than the other sport touring bikes in the category because they will have more on them. Simple.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:02 AM   #153
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i'm curious where you got this information from. people not happy with the Ohlins products?
It comes from visits I had with two dealers. Both had the same complaint...customers that have bought the 1100S came back and complained that the suspension was too harsh. The dealer then has to eat the cost of a spring swap and tinker with the bike on repeated visits. When is the customer happy? When the Ohlins shock is finally tuned to ride just like the stock shock. The customer is happy, but the techs in the shop just roll their eyes that the customer coulda been happy -- and $2k richer -- by getting the stock bike.

The problem isn't with the Ohlins, per se. It would seem to me that the Ohlins shocks on those 1100S models have been mis-spec'd. I weigh 175 and, with the preload dialed all the way out, I could only get about 15mm of total sag (from "wheel off the ground" to "me sitting on it"). That right there is a non-starter. That shock needs to be taken off the bike and either re-sprung or at least have the fixed preload moved out a few turns. Plenty of people would just go ride it and after a while, begin to just not like it.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:54 PM   #154
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A single spring is not sprung for the masses, maybe for those in Europe perhaps. Hec, I can't tell you how many springs I've replaced on my motorcycles, it's just part of what us performance minded riders do. Such a common thing, really.
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:08 PM   #155
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and also remember ESA II has spring rate adjustment in 3 settings, achieved through an elastomer spring stack moving in and out of the assembly.

sounds kinky don't it?
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:22 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Mr.Goose View Post
and also remember ESA II has spring rate adjustment in 3 settings, achieved through an elastomer spring stack moving in and out of the assembly.

sounds kinky don't it?
It does - and it works brilliantly.
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:22 PM   #157
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Oh!

They finnaly put the new mill on it!

It is all one needs!
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:41 PM   #158
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not exactly

A loaded BMW will always be worth more than the other sport touring bikes in the category because they will have more on them. Simple.
If you pay $20,000 for a BMW and it depreciates to half it's original value, you've lost $10,000 to depreciation. On the other hand, if you $10,000 for a Suzuki, and it depreciates to $2000 - you've lost $8000 to depreciation.

So yeah, the used BMW is worth more - but it still cost more in depreciation.

I've had this same conversation with the local BMW dealer a few times.
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Old 12-22-2010, 07:14 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Mr.Goose View Post
about 300 model year 2011 RT's in the US currently, over 200 of them got the radio on board.

"most in the US will have a radio"
At the moment, the only non-radio equipped RTs that my dealer can pull up in the locator are low-suspension models. All others - including those currently in transit are equipped with a radio.
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Old 12-22-2010, 08:09 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by mrbreeze View Post
If you pay $20,000 for a BMW and it depreciates to half it's original value, you've lost $10,000 to depreciation. On the other hand, if you $10,000 for a Suzuki, and it depreciates to $2000 - you've lost $8000 to depreciation.

So yeah, the used BMW is worth more - but it still cost more in depreciation.

I've had this same conversation with the local BMW dealer a few times.
Bigger question is if you'd enjoy the BMW for the extra $2000 depreciation. Would it be worth it?

Let's compare an R1200R and a Bandit 1250 (naked standards 2 vs 4 cylinder and the BMW costs almost twice), so used value on the BMW in 2 years(it'll have a year of factory warranty left, same as a brand new Suzuki) will be like a Toyota Tundra and the Suzuki will be valued like a Chevy S-10. You'll pay more and still get more.

Every new Bandit 1250 I ever sold (two of them) were $2000 or more off retail. We had to give them away, which is a shame because they're a great bike. Not a single R1200R (more than a few) got discounted at all. So most of this is market driven in the first place. Only so many come in every year. (suzuki didn't send 2010's because shops were choking on inventory).

You won't be able to add any value to the Suzuki since it won't have any warranty, bags, heated grips, on board computer. Factory options count for something - that's what I'm trying to emphasize.

Aftermarket stuff doesn't - it "eye in the beholder" type stuff.

And none of it's a big deal if you don't notice the difference between the two. I'd almost buy the Suzuki except in two years I know I'm gotta hate the suspension and brakes because of that crappy fork and rubber brake lines.

Then you have the saturation in the market. We'll find more cheap Suzuki's around and fewer cheap BMW's. And both will sell to whoever needs them.
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:21 AM   #161
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those are all good points, and I certainly agree that a new R1200R is worth more than a new Bandit - and yes both are great bikes.

But - you can get factory luggage on the Suzuki. As for me, I prefer to buy from the aftermarket, as I get a wider variety of accessories to choose from, and, if I choose well, I can take those accessories off the bike when I sell it, and put them on my next bike. And aftermarket luggage usually costs less to start with. The Givi trunk on my V-Strom is now on it's 3rd ride I bought it new for about $350 several years ago, and I am still using it.

Have you priced a BMW trunk lately? If memory serves me correctly, the last time I was at the BMW shop, they had a K13GT on the floor with BMW's 49 liter trunk on it, and they tacked $995 on the price of the bike for the trunk. And it didn't even match the bike.

As for suspensions, well people change those things out on BMW's just like they do on Suzuki's. I read a review of the R12R recently that described the suspension as "harsh". And while I love the stability and anti-dive characteristics of the telelever, it simply does not provide the same "feel" of the road that a conventional front end does.

Stainless steel brake lines are great, but I don't think they provide a significant advantage over rubber lines during the first few years of use. Now if I keep a bike over 3-4 years, I am swapping the lines out for steel. This is a relatively cheap upgrade, and can be done pretty easily if the front and rear brakes aren't linked. I haven't tried it on a bike with linked brakes, so I can't speak to that.


I think if a BMW is what you want and you can afford to pay the difference in price, then buy it! I just don't think I would be happier with R12R than I am with my DL1000. Especially when it comes time to make the payment every month. To my way of thinking, when comparing bikes, the higher priced bike starts out with a disadvantage. In the case of the R12R vs the Bandit, it has to justify it's higher price at buy in, as well as the cost of the additional depreciation.
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Old 01-01-2011, 03:15 PM   #162
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I look at the depreciation as the monthly cost of using the thing. If I buy a new BMW for $14k, it might be sold on Craigslist for say, $9k in 3 years. The bike cost me $5k over 36 months, or $139 per month. I just need to decide if I get $139 a month of enjoyment (in addition to fuel/maintenance).

If I buy, say, a Monster 1100 for $12k, I might only get $5k for it in 3 years. That raises the cost to $194 a month. The R12R is cheaper!
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Old 01-01-2011, 03:52 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by DiabloADV View Post
I look at the depreciation as the monthly cost of using the thing. If I buy a new BMW for $14k, it might be sold on Craigslist for say, $9k in 3 years. The bike cost me $5k over 36 months, or $139 per month. I just need to decide if I get $139 a month of enjoyment (in addition to fuel/maintenance).

If I buy, say, a Monster 1100 for $12k, I might only get $5k for it in 3 years. That raises the cost to $194 a month. The R12R is cheaper!
It is hard for me to believe that someone who analyzes their purchases in such a way would ever buy a new bike to begin with. I would think you would buy a three year old Monster.
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Old 01-01-2011, 03:59 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by DiabloADV View Post
I look at the depreciation as the monthly cost of using the thing. If I buy a new BMW for $14k, it might be sold on Craigslist for say, $9k in 3 years. The bike cost me $5k over 36 months, or $139 per month. I just need to decide if I get $139 a month of enjoyment (in addition to fuel/maintenance).

If I buy, say, a Monster 1100 for $12k, I might only get $5k for it in 3 years. That raises the cost to $194 a month. The R12R is cheaper!
The mother of all evil is speculation. - Gordon Gekko
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Old 01-01-2011, 04:27 PM   #165
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It is hard for me to believe that someone who analyzes their purchases in such a way would ever buy a new bike to begin with. I would think you would buy a three year old Monster.
They don't have ABS. That's how they keep tempting us to buy new stuff! I'm test-riding a 2010 M1100S ABS on Tuesday...

I'm usually too fickle to buy new. I get bored with toys quickly and want a different one. Ebay and Craigslist are the best things ever invented.
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