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Old 01-11-2011, 08:04 AM   #16
Anders Green
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doyle View Post
I am not sure why the ASO is so spot on with withdrawals and spotty on everything else, but that's how it is.
As a rally organizer myself, I can give you my guess. Timing is generally a lower priority than safety. For safety reasons, who's in and who's out, who's stuck out there in the dark and who's already back, kicking back at the bar, is pretty important, so that kind of information is transferred over all the radios and comms. The guys back at HQ monitor those same comms. So even though they might wait for hours for paper logs or cards with times, they'll usually know DNFs as soon as anybody knows about them.

So it has everything to do with the different methods of information movement for the different 'classes' of data.

That's the way we do it for RallyMoto events here in the States, it would seem, given your observations, that the same reasoning fits in for the ASO.

Cheers!
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Old 01-11-2011, 02:43 PM   #17
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1. So are the penalties announced anywhere? I mean the reason for the penalty? (or which rule was broken by the rider?)

2. Also you mention a pdf of the rules. Where is it?


3. Where can I get a copy of this year's Dakar Rally handbook?

Thanks for the writeup! -Migs
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:37 PM   #18
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Download Dakar Rulebooks for Autos and Motos here

You can download the pdf rules for Autos and Motorcycles in English here:

Motorcycle 2010:
http://www.dakar.com/2010/DAK/presen...nt_moto_us.pdf

Motorcycle 2011:
http://www.dakar.com/2011/DAK/presen...DK_2011_GB.pdf

Auto 2010:
http://www.dakar.com/2010/DAK/presen...nt_auto_us.pdf

Auto 2011:
http://www.dakar.com/2011/DAK/presen...DK_2011_GB.pdf


These are 2010 and 2011 versions and very detailed and informative. -Migs
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:13 AM   #19
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Great thread! As a n00b to following (or trying to) the Dakar, it's a great help.

So, what role does Ines Sainz play?
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:02 AM   #20
Anders Green
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Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post
So, what role does Ines Sainz play?
I think she's supposed to be involved in the scoring. That's my hope, anyhow.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:17 AM   #21
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Great writeup!

A couple stupid questions here:

1. Do all the timed stages count evenly? Is figuring the winner just a simple matter of totalling all of the timed stages and the winner is the guy with the lowest time? (Adding and subtracting of course penalties and helping down rider bonus').

I'm assuming here that its the lowest total time vs most stage wins for example?

2. How important are the liasons? Can you just take your sweet time? Stop and grab a burrito or are you moving along pretty quickly here and is everyone else moving along at the same pace?
I'm assuming that since you are not timed on the liasons it would be during them you refuel, go pee, grab some food or change your tires?
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
Great writeup!

A couple stupid questions here:

1. Do all the timed stages count evenly? Is figuring the winner just a simple matter of totalling all of the timed stages and the winner is the guy with the lowest time? (Adding and subtracting of course penalties and helping down rider bonus').

I'm assuming here that its the lowest total time vs most stage wins for example?

2. How important are the liasons? Can you just take your sweet time? Stop and grab a burrito or are you moving along pretty quickly here and is everyone else moving along at the same pace?
I'm assuming that since you are not timed on the liasons it would be during them you refuel, go pee, grab some food or change your tires?
Yes, lowest overall time wins. Singular stage wins are great for your reputation, but that's it.

You have a fixed time frame to do your liaison. You'll get your start time from the bivouac told the evening before, get stamped out in the morning and have to turn up at the special stage start (DSS) on time. The time frame should be long enough to refuel if necessary and ride within the normal speed limit on public roads. Of course liaison can be long, and if anything goes wrong, you can be in real trouble real quick. So it's not just a leisurely ride in the countryside.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:02 AM   #23
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Thanks Flood!

So if you show up late to your special section is there any grace? Do you get disqualified, do you just have to add as much time as you showed up late to your timed special stage?

I didn't understand the tire issue with Mark Coma last year. Is it that you are not allowed to change your tires in the middle of the day or that someone gave them to him? Can you change your tires in the evening? (If not those would be some pretty amazing tires I suppose!). For "cheating to work" with the tire issue I'm guessing Coma would have had to go extra fast in the liason with enough time left over to change it before the special stage - I can't imagine the difference a fresh tire would make would make up for the time lost changing it if he changed it in the special stage...


OK last "non rule related question". Is everyone on even footing in the evening time? Is everyone sleeping in tents, or are there some guys in luxury, sound proof RV's getting massages and breathing straight oxygen while others are setting up a pup tent in the sand? Anders Green mentioned something about kicking back at the bar... is there really a bar?
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:39 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
Thanks Flood!

So if you show up late to your special section is there any grace? Do you get disqualified, do you just have to add as much time as you showed up late to your timed special stage?

I didn't understand the tire issue with Mark Coma last year. Is it that you are not allowed to change your tires in the middle of the day or that someone gave them to him? Can you change your tires in the evening? (If not those would be some pretty amazing tires I suppose!). For "cheating to work" with the tire issue I'm guessing Coma would have had to go extra fast in the liason with enough time left over to change it before the special stage - I can't imagine the difference a fresh tire would make would make up for the time lost changing it if he changed it in the special stage...


OK last "non rule related question". Is everyone on even footing in the evening time? Is everyone sleeping in tents, or are there some guys in luxury, sound proof RV's getting massages and breathing straight oxygen while others are setting up a pup tent in the sand? Anders Green mentioned something about kicking back at the bar... is there really a bar?
If you show up late for your SS time, you get 1 minute penalty for every minute late. You are allowed to start the special until 30 minutes after the last rider leaves, after that, you're DSQ.
Yesterday, Casteu suffered engine failure on the liaison BEFORE the SS. He couldn't repair it in time, so he showed up at the start, clocked in and then left the race course to start repairs. With this trick, he got some penalties for leaving the race course, but had time for repairs until the checkpoints are closed in the night.

Tires: yes, almost everyone gets new tires every evening. I think you are allowed to get fresh tires at the start of the SS if the assistance vehicles take the same course on that day. If not, you have to ride on the same tires you took the liaison on. Last year, Coma allegedly disappeared behind a hut on the special and came out with a fresh rear tire. .

You can, however, swap wheels with other competitors. If Despres destroys a tire and Faria, his water carrier, shows up, Despres will take his wheel and Faria needs to wait for the assistance trucks. This is why assistance trucks take part in the race: They are fellow competitors (with factory mechanics and spares on board) and can render assistance on the stage. Hours later, of course.

Bivouac: almost everyone sleeps in tents, although the top boys might have a hotel room for the rest day. And massage therapists daily
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:43 PM   #25
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There was a blurb about Jonah getting a massage from the Yamaha team masseuse or team doctor the other day. So some teams have a little more support. I have heard stories of the top team riders getting IV drips at night to replenish whatever they were low on from the day (h20, salts, electrolytes etc)...not sure how accurate this is but it sounds likely. Also, having your own mechanic to hand your bike off to at the end of the day is right up there with having a full on spa waiting for you considering you can focus on eat, tomorrows road book, and sleep.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos M View Post
Regarding missing waypoints, timing WP's and WPM's:

There are a lot of waypoints on the GPS's for the pilots to pass by. The ones harder to find are the WPM's. These are the ones which the GPS will only direct to if the rider is in a vicinity of 800 meters.

AFAIK, the timing waypoints ASO gives us F5'ers (WP1, WP2...) are just timing aids to allow us to follow the race live and have nothing to do with the WPM the pilots have to search.

A pilot having clocked all timing waypoints just means his Iritrack has worked all the time and that he was on the correct track at the timing place.

A pilot that doesn't show WP's times may have colected all the WPM's and won the stage.

And a pilot who has shown all WP's timing may have missed a WPM and get a penalty in the end. I believe that was the case of Faria who got 2h penalty on stage 11.

ASO collects the data from each pilot's GPS on arrival to the bivvy, and only then it is known who missed WP , who speeded and so on.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:20 AM   #27
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WPM's, WPS', GPS' and how to find your ASS from your DSS


Remember! This type of navigation is for the most part, only in the "off piste" sand dune and open desert stages.

On stages like 1, 2 and 3 and even stages 12 and 13, where the course follows primarily defined tracks and trails... the course is primarily navigated using road book and odometer... GPS point are there to confirm the competitor FOLLOWS the entire itinerary of the course.

Difference between a WPS (Safety) and a WPM (Hidden):

WPS is to allow the competitors to pass the route in safety (that is to say these designate a particular hinder or passage ie; the opening to a valley through a pass, a specific river crossing etc.). Which is part of the reason that the GPS unlocks at the more generous radius of 3000m, BUT is more precise in it's definition of the center of point (90m) where the WP is acquired. ie; to find a gap thru a rocky valley or deep gorge, the road book setter defines exactly where to pass, so as not to have folk falling down chasms etc.

WPM are typically the GPS reference points that the riders must "find" in the open piste (sand dunes) in order to complete the course as set... Kind of like electronic "connect the dots". between these points it is using the compas and CAP headings given in the roadbook that are used to navigate. having found that waypoint, the GPS aquires it and you proceed to look for the next...

Both WPMs and WPS points have time penalties applied to them for failing to pass via that point, these penalties vary according to the table in the competition standard regulations.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:50 PM   #28
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What is the difference between scratch and stage placements/times ?

Penalties ?
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:16 PM   #29
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What is the difference between scratch and stage placements/times ?

Penalties ?
As I understand it, scratch is actual racing time only while stage (eventually) includes all penalties as well.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:26 AM   #30
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Also, having your own mechanic to hand your bike off to at the end of the day is right up there with having a full on spa waiting for you considering you can focus on eat, tomorrows road book, and sleep.

That would be sweet to hand off a limping bike with busted levels, tweaked pedals, epoxied radiator, sagging headlight, dinged rims with no meat on the tires, go to sleep and wake up to a nice shiny bike.

Seth I don't know if you've experienced it but there's something sweet riding around on the 690 now, watching the Dakar and knowing their bikes are good... but not as good as the bike I'm riding around on!
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