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Old 02-07-2011, 10:33 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofate View Post
Sweet breads?
I used to sprout my own diastatic malt.. use insted of sugar. Been a great while but a good way.
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:45 PM   #77
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Just saw this thread. I've thought about starting a "ADV-ask bread questions here" thread, but never thought ther'd be much interest.

Bread is what I do. Well, bread and Viennoiserie as well as cookies, scones muffins. Coffee keeps us in business, but we're pretty into that too

Here's our site
http://sevenstarsbakery.com/

A (not very good) blog I started recently
http://sevenstarsbakery.blogspot.com/

Our facebook page that my wife maintains
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Seven-...5212716?v=wall

I'm an open book. Ask away!

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Old 02-07-2011, 01:46 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by UPSam View Post


This is a really good bread book. Has lots on technique. The French sour dough section is excellent. I made the Pain au Levain a lot and it is . Never thought to take a picture. 3lb pound monster recipe is here
This is the book that started me in this career. Awesome.
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:49 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Denis View Post
Yeast question; I've been using the small packets of yeast but they don't specifically say instant yeast that is called for by the no-knead recipes. I found the instant yeast, it's like a small brick. Anyone use this kind of yeast? What's the difference?

Denis
If the No-knead recipe you're referring to is Jim Laheys that's the yeast he's talking about. I'm assuming you found what we call "Saf Red", and the yeast is great. Don't do any of the proofing in water water shenanigans with saf red. It's ready to go. In fact, lots of Artisan bakeries are switching over to it from Fresh yeast since it's so viable/reliable. If I didn't have a great supply of fresh yeast we'd be using it in our bakery.

We do use Saf Gold which is osmotolerant in our Viennoiserie. It's specifically designed for high sugar/fat doughs.
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:32 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
If the No-knead recipe you're referring to is Jim Laheys that's the yeast he's talking about. I'm assuming you found what we call "Saf Red", and the yeast is great. Don't do any of the proofing in water water shenanigans with saf red. It's ready to go. In fact, lots of Artisan bakeries are switching over to it from Fresh yeast since it's so viable/reliable. If I didn't have a great supply of fresh yeast we'd be using it in our bakery.

We do use Saf Gold which is osmotolerant in our Viennoiserie. It's specifically designed for high sugar/fat doughs.
What kneading?

I have the hook attachment on my mixer ... that is plenty for me.
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:58 PM   #81
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Our flagship bread. Durum stick

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Old 02-07-2011, 07:02 PM   #82
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Jim, that looks delightful. What makes it that way?

Denis
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:33 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis View Post
Jim, that looks delightful. What makes it that way?

Denis
Fermentation and hydration (lots of water). If that bread doesn't look that way, I'm not happy!
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:43 AM   #84
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My last attempt at a loaf



I forgot to open up the top before I baked it so it was a bit smaller and denser than I wanted, but still tasted fantastic. Somehow almost like black walnuts.

I took the other 1/4 of the dough, sectioned it up and fried it in olive oil and garlic to go with my sphaghetti.


That didn't quite work out the way I wanted, but I've got some ideas for next time.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:23 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
If the No-knead recipe you're referring to is Jim Laheys that's the yeast he's talking about. I'm assuming you found what we call "Saf Red", and the yeast is great. Don't do any of the proofing in water water shenanigans with saf red. It's ready to go. In fact, lots of Artisan bakeries are switching over to it from Fresh yeast since it's so viable/reliable. If I didn't have a great supply of fresh yeast we'd be using it in our bakery.

We do use Saf Gold which is osmotolerant in our Viennoiserie. It's specifically designed for high sugar/fat doughs.

Interesting that Saf, haven't seen it in Canada yet, will have to check with my suppliers. How does it compare with Fermipan Red? Called Fermipan Eagle in Canada, I always had good results with that one.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:40 AM   #86
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Thank you very much Jim for offering your knowledge.
I wonder if you'd offer some critique on my drunken post above.

I wanted the holey/translucent-grain and fairly dense (weight, not texture) bread that comes on the table in a good italian restaurant. The recipe I used was for "biga" bread. About a third of the dough is allowed to rest for 12-24hrs in the fridge in order to develop the gluten (so they say).

I'm trying to find the very happiest medium between fuss/labor (and cleanup), and a good single loaf since I don't want to freeze it, and one loaf is all I can handle at a time.

The no-knead recipes I found were still a bit heavy on the rise time, fold, flip, rise time, repeat, and other little hassles.

The biga recipe only required five to ten minutes of kneading so I used this recipe and used the dutch oven method to bake it. I was really really happy with what came out. Mine was only about half as coarsly aerated as your pic below for the most part but had some holes the same size. I preferred it that way. (that's why I mentioned recipes being "open source" programs that need adaptation to desired outcome. That's beautiful bread below. Good illustration what I meant by comparison with the bland styrofoam texture of 'wonder' breads.


When you mentioned water it occurred to me... my dough seemed waaay too wet.
2cups flour/1cupwater/.25tspyeast for the Biga
3cups flour/2 1/3 cupwater/1.0tspyeast/2tspsalt for the main dough which gets kneaded into the biga after the biga sets for 12 to 24.

This left me with a sodden dough that was really difficult to shape so I pretty much plopped it into the dutch oven and hoped for the best. Maybe that's why it turned out so good?

Last night, in my quest for simplicity, I combined the uber simple recipe I made the whole thing the "biga"....
5cupflour/2tspsalt/1.25tspyeast*/2.3cupswater
and hand kneeded for about five minutes before sticking in the fridge for 12-24hrs.
*(just tossing in local 'meijer's' brand "active dry "for bread machines and traditional baking" without any proofing)

For some reason, combining them both at this point made for a much drier/stiffer dough. It's in the fridge right now and I"m going to bake in a few more hours. But I wonder now if part of what I liked about that first loaf was a result of the dough being almost 'runny'.

svejkovat screwed with this post 02-08-2011 at 08:50 AM
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:42 AM   #87
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Laugh

I thought PORN was contraban here!!!
WOW !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
Friend of mine made four 10-pound loaves for Thanksgiving.







I love good homemade bread.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:47 AM   #88
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Sir Williams
so for the total noob that likes to experiment, where do I start?
I do have Biscuit experience and everyone that has had my biscuits raves about them. From one of our austin-area good markets I get plain, unmodified unadulterated unenriched unbotched 'bread flour'.

but to make REAL BREAD like I see here, do you recommend that book that someone else posted? And what is a good basic yeast to use?
And what is a good bread machine - that is, kneading machine?? I have a big fancy food processor but to be honest I know nothing about its capabilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Just saw this thread. I've thought about starting a "ADV-ask bread questions here" thread, but never thought ther'd be much interest.

Bread is what I do. Well, bread and Viennoiserie as well as cookies, scones muffins. Coffee keeps us in business, but we're pretty into that too

Here's our site
http://sevenstarsbakery.com/

A (not very good) blog I started recently
http://sevenstarsbakery.blogspot.com/

Our facebook page that my wife maintains
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Seven-...5212716?v=wall

I'm an open book. Ask away!

Cheers.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:03 AM   #89
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Control time and temperature and you control bread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svejkovat View Post
Thank you very much Jim for offering your knowledge.
I wonder if you'd offer some critique on my drunken post above.

I wanted the holey/translucent-grain and fairly dense (weight, not texture) bread that comes on the table in a good italian restaurant. The recipe I used was for "biga" bread. About a third of the dough is allowed to rest for 12-24hrs in the fridge in order to develop the gluten (so they say).

I'm trying to find the very happiest medium between fuss/labor (and cleanup), and a good single loaf since I don't want to freeze it, and one loaf is all I can handle at a time.

The no-knead recipes I found were still a bit heavy on the rise time, fold, flip, rise time, repeat, and other little hassles.

The biga recipe only required five to ten minutes of kneading so I used this recipe and used the dutch oven method to bake it. I was really really happy with what came out. Mine was only about half as coarsly aerated as your pic below for the most part but had some holes the same size. I preferred it that way. (that's why I mentioned recipes being "open source" programs that need adaptation to desired outcome. That's beautiful bread below. Good illustration what I meant by comparison with the bland styrofoam texture of 'wonder' breads.


When you mentioned water it occurred to me... my dough seemed waaay too wet.
2cups flour/1cupwater/.25tspyeast for the Biga
3cups flour/2 1/3 cupwater/1.0tspyeast/2tspsalt for the main dough which gets kneaded into the biga after the biga sets for 12 to 24.

This left me with a sodden dough that was really difficult to shape so I pretty much plopped it into the dutch oven and hoped for the best. Maybe that's why it turned out so good?

Last night, in my quest for simplicity, I combined the uber simple recipe....
5cupflour/2tspsalt/1.25tspyeast*/2.3cupswater
and hand kneeded for about five minutes.
*(just tossing in local 'meijer's' brand "active dry "for bread machines and traditional baking" without any proofing)

For some reason, combining them both at this point made for a much drier/stiffer dough. It's in the fridge right now and I"m going to bake in a few more hours. But I wonder now if part of what I liked about that first loaf was a result of the dough being almost 'runny'.
You might've been on the right track with the first go around. Most of our doughs are pretty wet. They kind of pour out of the bowl. We scoop them out rather than pull them out in a mass if that makes any sense? Wet dough and long fermentation makes the best bread. No question. You're on the right track with using a biga. It's hard for me to tell what your recipe really is, since I think in bakers percentages, rather than cups. If possible, next time, weigh everything out and post back. I can break it down into percentages.

As for your bread, without knowing actual percentages it's hard for me to comment on the recipe. Still, recipes are nothing more than guidelines, it's more about method. I could give you a recipe for the bread above, and it might change several times a year thanks to changes in flour, humidity etc. Temperature doesn't affect us much, since we work in 75F rooms year round. Humidity however greatly affects things thanks to flour sitting in trucks and warehouses.

So, back to your bread. Mix it just until the dough comes together. Don't worry too much about the kneading part. Jsut get all the ingredients to come together. If the biga is stiff, that needs to be mixed in well with no lumps. I would recommend doing the same thing you did on the first go, then add in a series of folds. If you do one every 30 min, you'll be surprised at the difference in the dough. Fermentation develops bread dough as much as mixing does, and that's the reason these no-knead recipes work. Over the very long fermentation, the dough is developing itself.

Gradually, you'll get a feel for it, and be able to get away with less mixing (kneading) and more folds. Alot less work on your end, and better bread.

Here's a link to someone folding. It's pretty good, but for gods sake don't handle the dough so much!! I tell my mixers to "get in and get out". The more you handle it, the more damage your doing. That pick up the dough and fondle in midair thing she's doing is just bizarre Basic idea is good though! The first time it may feel really sloppy, but by the time you do the second, you'll be amazed at the difference in the dough.


Good luck!
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:10 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapp22 View Post
Sir Williams
so for the total noob that likes to experiment, where do I start?
I do have Biscuit experience and everyone that has had my biscuits raves about them. From one of our austin-area good markets I get plain, unmodified unadulterated unenriched unbotched 'bread flour'.

but to make REAL BREAD like I see here, do you recommend that book that someone else posted? And what is a good basic yeast to use?
And what is a good bread machine - that is, kneading machine?? I have a big fancy food processor but to be honest I know nothing about its capabilities
You were born with two bread machines attached to your arms. Donate the other thing taking up space on your kitchen counter to the thrift store!

That Bread Alone book is good, but the best? Well, it's pretty outdated.

Some of my favorite books are Bread by Jeffrey Hamelman and Tartine from Chad Robertson. The Tartine book esp. gets down to the nitty gritty right away, and in a very approachable manner, but sourdough not yeast. Any serious bread maker will need to take the step to sourdough, and it's not as difficult as it seems. Like anything, there a few rules to follow, but it's pretty idiot proof. We maintain two sourdoughs at the bakery, and our sourdough bread is more consistent than the yeasted bread. It's actually much more forgiving, and makes better bread!

This no-knead method is probably the easiest to get going with. It's funny, I've been making pizza dough at home using this exact method for 15 years or so. I never knew it would take off! After hearing about it, I took some of the pizzas dough I made, tossed it into a preheated cast iron dutch oven, and was blown away by how good it was! It's a great way to get started.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html

As for yeast, the above referenced Saf Red is a great yeast, that has a 1 yr. shelf life if stored correctly. It is the yeast referenced in the recipe, and if you can get your hands on it, I would recommend it. Stay away from any of the junk in the grocery stores labeled "fast rise" or "bread Machine" or anything along those lines. You can't make good bread with fast rise. It's not possible. Fermentation makes good bread. Not yeast. Most of the bread you buy in stores or local bakeries are not fermenting wheat. They're creating carbon dioxide!

Hope that helps.
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