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Old 05-25-2011, 02:59 PM   #5956
Lion BR
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Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
I have trouble with that analysis. For smoothness I give credits to the Triumph. A triple will always be smoother than a twin. A vertical twin, with 2 pistons rising and falling together is one the most difficult motor types to smooth out. Bmw did it with a counter weight that looks like a third cylinder horizontally in the crankcase. It not only quells some vibes it transfers them from up and down to forward and back. It feels smoother to the rider but not a triple nor is a triple as naturally smooth as a 4 banger.

One advantage a twin has over a triple is the firing impulses. A single or less so a twin has a lag in the transference of power to the rear wheel which allows the tire to hook up better in loose terrain. Probably not an issue for a casual rider but it is there for the experts.

The Triumph does have an amazingly wide range of power. But the BMW still makes more torque in the lower RPM range. That makes it a very easy bike to ride off road. I don't know the overall gearing ratio to compare one bike against the other. Luckily they are both chain drive so that can be easily changed one way or the other.

I would love the see the weight comparison. I don't believe the BMW advertised weight, but looking at the lump in the Triumph you will never convince me it is within 30lbs of the BMW until some one put them on a scale. Irregardless of the weight, that 30 pounds of fuel between your knees is higher than the 4.2 gal under your butt.

The stock BMW suspension sucks IMO, but the bike still has more travel and ground clearance, probably less weight and lower cog than the Triumph, so in the hands of an expert I believe it will perform better off road. The reality is that most riders of either bike don't come close to using the full capability of the bikes.

The BMW is not the slug, some people claim it to be. In the only 1/4 mile numbers I have seen is a .20 second difference. If that is important to you, look at a Triumph 1050, it is quicker than either one.

Enjoy your Triumph, good bike, IMO better on the road. I want to see a valid head to head off road, that MCN reports was a joke.
Nice analysis.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:02 PM   #5957
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Good post, great links, Thanks!
The F800GS didn't get to the USA until '09. That was the first year F800GS, IIRC. So two years before the Tiger 800. The Tiger 800 was already long in R&D at that point. Did Triumph copy? Sure, probably did, but in style, not engineering.

The Husky element is very interesting. Remains to be seen whether BMW engineers have better ideas than the Italians.
Great links!
AFAIK, the first model year for the F800GS was 2008 (Europe only). I agree with you, USA did not get it until the 2009 model.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:29 PM   #5958
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nor is a triple as naturally smooth as a 4 banger.

I rind the Triumph triple motor is way less buzzy than the 4 cylinder bikes I have ridden.

I wonder if there is a numerical way to measure and quantify the smoothness of a motor?
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:36 PM   #5959
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Originally Posted by CA Stu View Post
I rind the Triumph triple motor is way less buzzy than the 4 cylinder bikes I have ridden.

I wonder if there is a numerical way to measure and quantify the smoothness of a motor?
If you have the money and the desire there's always a way, it's called vibration analysis.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:55 PM   #5960
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Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
nor is a triple as naturally smooth as a 4 banger.
Odd that you say that, as an inline triple only requires one counterbalancer shaft to cancel its vibrations while an inline four requires two counterbalancer shafts. But anyhow.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:17 PM   #5961
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Originally Posted by CA Stu View Post
I rind the Triumph triple motor is way less buzzy than the 4 cylinder bikes I have ridden.

I wonder if there is a numerical way to measure and quantify the smoothness of a motor?
Check the book called Bodies in Motion: Evolution and Experience in Motorcycling.

The author, Steven Thompson, analyses among other things, motorcycle vibrations at the pegs, handlebars and seat. Check the link for samples of what he wrote about this, especially pages 116 and 117.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:28 PM   #5962
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Originally Posted by Spots View Post
Odd that you say that, as an inline triple only requires one counterbalancer shaft to cancel its vibrations while an inline four requires two counterbalancer shafts. But anyhow.
Triples require less balance shafts as they are always naturally smoother than fours, this is why most small diesel engines are now triples as they are even more prone to vibration than petrol engines.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:44 PM   #5963
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Odd that you say that, as an inline triple only requires one counterbalancer shaft to cancel its vibrations while an inline four requires two counterbalancer shafts. But anyhow.

It really depends on the throw of the crankshaft. A triple has 2 pistons going up and down, offset with a piston on a different throw. The single piston acts partly as a counter weight. To be honest I never owned a 4 banger, but thinking about it, it is probably 2 and 2, so you may be right for an inline motor. That could be offset with counter balancers and heavier flywheels, but not likely to happen in the type of bike you find them in.

It was a blanket statement, I should have know better. There are all types of variations. Bmw is on a 360 crank, meaning they rise and fall together, firing alternately. A few twins like the later TDM's and new 1200's use a 270 degree crank so the firing is different as is the need for a different type of counter balance. The vertical twins are the hardest to balance. Some old twins put the pistons on different planes but that gave side to side vibrations. V twins are different yet, depending whether they are 45-90 degrees between cylinders or some other variation. Even those can tweeked with variation of the crank throws, like Honda.

I didn't mean to turn this into some technical discourse.

I think Triumph has a winner here that will fit 90% of the riders. It is surprising what you can do with a UJM with some knobbies on it. I rode my 92 TDM all over the central Sierra FS roads, the sand around Mammoth, up Silver Canyon and the Loop between Silverton and Lake City. I bought the BMW because I could not ride it as fast and I was going around obstacles my buddy on a KTM just rode over.

I stand by the fact (if you call it that) an expert could do the same with an F800 over the Triumph.
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:37 PM   #5964
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Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
One advantage a twin has over a triple is the firing impulses. A single or less so a twin has a lag in the transference of power to the rear wheel which allows the tire to hook up better in loose terrain.
You might be surprised how well a triple hooks up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
I would love the see the weight comparison. I don't believe the BMW advertised weight, but looking at the lump in the Triumph you will never convince me it is within 30lbs of the BMW until some one put them on a scale. Irregardless of the weight, that 30 pounds of fuel between your knees is higher than the 4.2 gal under your butt.
I believe the MCN (US) wet weight for the F800GS (490 lbs). You make a very good point about fuel location. Lower is better ... and this could be key to handling and possibly feedback. Also, like all triples, even the 800 is a rather tall motor.
I agree that a Apples for Apples off road test is called for ... with both bikes running knobby tires.

BMW have lots of problems now. Turmoil within the German work force (guest worker program), inconsistent quality of out sourced parts, problems transitioning production to China and on going Quality Assurance issues that have been going on for a decade.

David Robb and the new CEO say they are committed to improving ... but the problems around the F800's are not all that reassuring at this point.

Funny how magazine reviews never, ever talk about long term owner experience or reliability ... and nowadays no one tracks dealer visits or breakdowns. (MIC used to do this) BMW consistently get STELLAR reviews in the press, including the new six cylinder touring bike and new F800ST standard bike. A+ A+ A+ all the way around.

Now why is that?
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:57 PM   #5965
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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Check the book called Bodies in Motion: Evolution and Experience in Motorcycling.

The author, Steven Thompson, analyses among other things, motorcycle vibrations at the pegs, handlebars and seat. Check the link for samples of what he wrote about this, especially pages 116 and 117.
Lion
Steve Thompson should know! ... or if he didn't before, he does now!
Remember, he was on the Buell team!

Kevin Cameron has done a few columns about vibration and the perfect motor. The Triple is it ... and a six is good too!
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:03 PM   #5966
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post

Kevin Cameron has done a few columns about vibration and the perfect motor. The Triple is it ... and a six is good too!
Actually an inline six is it, as far as the perfect naturally balanced engine. A triple is halfway there.
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:08 PM   #5967
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Eurosports in Coopersburg PA Has a black XC

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691130

Just saw this in the regional section if anyone's looking in PA, Eurosports has a black XC and a White demo to be put together yet.

Call Bobby Brown, Sales Manager (used to work at Scott Powersports) 610-282-9300

Tell him Christian Donovan (RXV550, KTM525, KTM300, KTM 950 SE, BLACK F350) sent you
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:13 PM   #5968
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[...] BMW consistently get STELLAR reviews in the press, including the new six cylinder touring bike and new F800ST standard bike. A+ A+ A+ all the way around.

Now why is that?
Perhaps because BMWs are great bikes? Some of the bikes have flaws, but still, they are great bikes. Have great re-sale value too, which compensates very well for the initial investment.

The Tiger 800s have been getting stellar reviews as well. As well as the Street and Speed Triples.

Now, the Vstroms...
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:30 PM   #5969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
nor is a triple as naturally smooth as a 4 banger.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spots View Post
Odd that you say that, as an inline triple only requires one counterbalancer shaft to cancel its vibrations while an inline four requires two counterbalancer shafts. But anyhow.


I have owned a few bikes SV650S and Vstrom 1K, both 90 deg twins. 2 four banger - 2K1 Bandit 600 and 2K1Yamaha FZ1. And 2 triple - 2K6 Sprint 1050 and 2011 Tiger 800XC.

AFAIK - 90 deg L-twins are naturally balanced sans counter balancers and on same crank pin. As are inline 4s with cylinders 1 and 4 rise and falling together, 2 and 3 are on crank pins 180 from 1 and 4. The new Yamaha R1 has cross plane crank config - totally different from conventional IL4s but thats getting off topic.

Of all my motorcycles, the Triumph triple are the smoothest thru the entire rev range. The 4s, though naturally balanced seem to have vibrations that move from feet to seat to bars at various revs - strange.

I rode both F800GS and Tiger, the engine buzz at my highway cruising speed was annoying - Tiger wins!
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:32 PM   #5970
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Perhaps because BMWs are great bikes? Some of the bikes have flaws, but still, they are great bikes.
Maybe you've never attended ... or heard about a BMW press intro ?

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Now, the Vstroms...
I'll put the long term service records of Vstroms against any BMW anytime.
Not really close.
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