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Old 07-31-2011, 09:18 PM   #7531
Xcountry-Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deano955 View Post
No shit, you crossed water that many times? And no instant death?

I was washing my bike this evening and looked closer at the suspected part. It actually has a rubber elbow on the front of it that looks like a drain. The part in question is just below the countershaft sprocket. It has 2 wires on the back of it and the drain tube on the front. Don't know what it is, but I suspect that is the reason my bike stalled in that little water crossing. Really, the water was about as high as that part. The bike died and would not restart until I pushed the Beast out of the water. Then within a few tries, it started back up.

I rode it again today, for about 300 miles. I covered some nice DS passes and had a great day. However, the bike stalled on me 5 times.

Unfortunately, you might be on to something regarding the Lemon Law...
I'm wondering if this is the clue to the problem. Maybe the stalling issue has something to do with the charcoal filter?
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:25 PM   #7532
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It can't be for all cases as people with Canadian bikes have it, too, and those don't have a charcoal filter (rightly so because that POS is making more trouble than good).
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:06 PM   #7533
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Originally Posted by outactrl View Post
Triumph doesn't know why either. Dropped my bike off yesterday for the 3rd time to correct this issue. They had it 3 weeks last time, ended up replacing the throttle bodies, but that didn't help. They ran all the diagnostics and found nothing wrong. Ladies, I've been following your ride report and absotulely love it! I bought the Tiger to do trips exaclty like yours. I would hate for you to have to cut your trip short because of this issue. But Triumph does not have a fix for this, hoping you get home safe.
I'm wondering if he may have stumbled on the stalling issue that some folks are having maybe connected to the charcoal canister? I did a google search and there seems to be a good connection to charcoal canisters and stalling issues in other bikes.

http://www.google.com/search?q=charc...w=1366&bih=564
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:23 PM   #7534
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The thing is: European and Canadian spec bikes don't have a canister (not sure about Canadian, but certain about European). And for example Cheryl and Leslie should have Canadian spec bikes, therefore no canister and still they experience stalling.

It might just be another potentially contributing factor, especially during water crossings.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:29 PM   #7535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcountry-Rider View Post
I'm wondering if he may have stumbled on the stalling issue that some folks are having maybe connected to the charcoal canister? I did a google search and there seems to be a good connection to charcoal canisters and stalling issues in other bikes.

http://www.google.com/search?q=charc...w=1366&bih=564
Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
It can't be for all cases as people with Canadian bikes have it, too, and those don't have a charcoal filter (rightly so because that POS is making more trouble than good).
Over at this forum folks are saying they've got the problem fixed.

http://www.triumphrat.net/tiger-800-...c-owner-3.html
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:14 AM   #7536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
will they have a job in a few days

ed
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:18 AM   #7537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcountry-Rider View Post
Over at this forum folks are saying they've got the problem fixed.

http://www.triumphrat.net/tiger-800-...c-owner-3.html

That is interesting. They do not have a solution there, in terms of ECU tune. I mean, nothing different than what people have talked here or in the tiger 800 forum, about the arrow tune resolving the issue for some bit not all. One person mentions a "custom" map, though.

That same person on that forum (triumph rat) does mention the stepper motor and the actuator. That changing these resolved it, alongside a custom map.

Here is the text:

"Got my XC back from the dealer yesterday. They replaced the stepper motor and the actuator. The technician did a custom map and sent the numbers to Triumph. I understand that Triumph is fully aware of this problem and they plan to take care of anyone dealing with this situation. Standby for another official Triumph map very soon."

This is interesting because when Cheryl and Leslie's bikes were diagnosed with a stepper motor problem, in their Alaska trip, I thought they were finally zooming into the problem. But there is no reference to this in the service summary of the work performed in their bikes (that we read in their thread).

A stepper motor, AFAIK, in response to ECU commands, would optimize engine performance by advancing/retarding timing on Variable Valve Timing engines according to changes in ambient and engine temperature, for example. My bike, when it stalls, the timing seems to be a bit advanced (specially on warm conditions), as engine at times will not stall but you hear a knock in the situation it would stall (blipping the throttle) and it catches up. And when it stalls, it is sudden, with no sputtering like it could do as a result of a fueling issue.

And what did solve the issue with that guy in the Triumphrat forum? The replacement of the stepper motor/actuator or the custom map? Or do you need both worked on to resolve it?

These are just a few thoughts out there... I'm not a mechanic, so please take my comments with a grain of salt (I already made the same comments on the Tiger 800 Forum, based on someone else's similar point there).

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Old 08-01-2011, 05:36 AM   #7538
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How my bike sounds when it stalls

and what it sounds like when we tried to start it yesterday. Cheryl tweaked the throttle cable and no stalls after that for now.


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Old 08-01-2011, 06:53 AM   #7539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post

A stepper motor, AFAIK, in response to ECU commands, would optimize engine performance by advancing/retarding timing on Variable Valve Timing engines according to changes in ambient and engine temperature, for example. My bike, when it stalls, the timing seems to be a bit advanced (specially on warm conditions), as engine at times will not stall but you hear a knock in the situation it would stall (blipping the throttle) and it catches up. And when it stalls, it is sudden, with no sputtering like it could do as a result of a fueling issue.
Ok you've got some bad info in here so I just want to clarify a couple things so the issue does not become even more confused.

A stepper motor is simply an electric motor that is configured to make very fine movements.

You are confusing ignition timing and valve timing which are two wholly different concepts. No motors or moving parts are used to adjust ignition timing (these days). The ignition timing is part of the ECU tune and is adjusted electronically via the ECU according to the map.

Valve timing is static and is set by the engine designers when the camshafts are designed and manufactured. Triumphs do not have variable valve timing.

The stepper motor in Triumph's case is a small electric motor (or motors - I can't recall if there's just one or if there's one for each throttle body) whose job it is to make fine adjustments to throttle angle to maintain a stable idle at the target idle speed as programmed within the ECU map. The ECU map provides for a target idle speed which is based upon coolant temperature.

Here's a screen shot of the idle speed mapping as shown in TuneECU. You can see that the ECU has a few reference points for what the target idle speed should be for various coolant temperatures and it extrapolates the points in between the defined target points.



You can thank Microsoft for the shitty quality of this jpeg.

I'll be interested to see how this angle plays out.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:05 AM   #7540
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Thank you, I appreciate the clarification. Can we say, then, that according to that poster the problem solution involves a software (ECU tune) and a hardware (stepper motor) correction? And what is the actuator?
Lion

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerk View Post
Ok you've got some bad info in here so I just want to clarify a couple things so the issue does not become even more confused.

A stepper motor is simply an electric motor that is configured to make very fine movements.

You are confusing ignition timing and valve timing which are two wholly different concepts. No motors or moving parts are used to adjust ignition timing (these days). The ignition timing is part of the ECU tune and is adjusted electronically via the ECU according to the map.

Valve timing is static and is set by the engine designers when the camshafts are designed and manufactured. Triumphs do not have variable valve timing.

The stepper motor in Triumph's case is a small electric motor (or motors - I can't recall if there's just one or if there's one for each throttle body) whose job it is to make fine adjustments to throttle angle to maintain a stable idle at the target idle speed as programmed within the ECU map. The ECU map provides for a target idle speed which is based upon coolant temperature.

I'll be interested to see how this angle plays out.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:10 AM   #7541
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We are thinking throttle piston sensor
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:11 AM   #7542
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Interesting. The only time my bike had this type of idling problem as shown in this video, went away when I refueled. The tank was on reserve when this happened.

My bike's idling problem, which consistently happens when engine is warm and usually after an idle period stopped at, for example, a red light, happens only when I try to accelerate out of the stop or blip the throttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soph9 View Post
and what it sounds like when we tried to start it yesterday. Cheryl tweaked the throttle cable and no stalls after that for now.


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Old 08-01-2011, 07:28 AM   #7543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Thank you, I appreciate the clarification. Can we say, then, that according to that poster the problem solution involves a software (ECU tune) and a hardware (stepper motor) correction? And what is the actuator?
Lion
Without having the service manual in front of me to confirm, my guess is that the actuator is basically the mechanical linkage between the stepper motor and the throttle.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:09 AM   #7544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
I can't say it enough: file a complaint with the NHTSA or Triumph will not acknowledge the problem but will keep trying to fix on a one by one basis.

It doesn't take long and might one day safe a life. Maybe it's someone you know ...

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Your excellent comments need repeating!!!!!!


I reviewed three 800 forums and have seen only one person with a stalling bike who said they reported it to the NHTSA.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:16 AM   #7545
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I agree that TPS, idle stepper motor, tune, idle speed, TB balance etc could be the problem and this might be a bit left field here, but has anyone considered Oxygenated fuels as a potential culprit.
We don't get it here in Oz and I don't really understand how it effects engine running, but the service manual says that it can effect engine starting and running and also performance and fuel consuption
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