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Old 08-01-2011, 04:36 AM   #7576
soph9
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How my bike sounds when it stalls

and what it sounds like when we tried to start it yesterday. Cheryl tweaked the throttle cable and no stalls after that for now.


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Old 08-01-2011, 05:53 AM   #7577
The Jerk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post

A stepper motor, AFAIK, in response to ECU commands, would optimize engine performance by advancing/retarding timing on Variable Valve Timing engines according to changes in ambient and engine temperature, for example. My bike, when it stalls, the timing seems to be a bit advanced (specially on warm conditions), as engine at times will not stall but you hear a knock in the situation it would stall (blipping the throttle) and it catches up. And when it stalls, it is sudden, with no sputtering like it could do as a result of a fueling issue.
Ok you've got some bad info in here so I just want to clarify a couple things so the issue does not become even more confused.

A stepper motor is simply an electric motor that is configured to make very fine movements.

You are confusing ignition timing and valve timing which are two wholly different concepts. No motors or moving parts are used to adjust ignition timing (these days). The ignition timing is part of the ECU tune and is adjusted electronically via the ECU according to the map.

Valve timing is static and is set by the engine designers when the camshafts are designed and manufactured. Triumphs do not have variable valve timing.

The stepper motor in Triumph's case is a small electric motor (or motors - I can't recall if there's just one or if there's one for each throttle body) whose job it is to make fine adjustments to throttle angle to maintain a stable idle at the target idle speed as programmed within the ECU map. The ECU map provides for a target idle speed which is based upon coolant temperature.

Here's a screen shot of the idle speed mapping as shown in TuneECU. You can see that the ECU has a few reference points for what the target idle speed should be for various coolant temperatures and it extrapolates the points in between the defined target points.



You can thank Microsoft for the shitty quality of this jpeg.

I'll be interested to see how this angle plays out.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:05 AM   #7578
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Thank you, I appreciate the clarification. Can we say, then, that according to that poster the problem solution involves a software (ECU tune) and a hardware (stepper motor) correction? And what is the actuator?
Lion

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerk View Post
Ok you've got some bad info in here so I just want to clarify a couple things so the issue does not become even more confused.

A stepper motor is simply an electric motor that is configured to make very fine movements.

You are confusing ignition timing and valve timing which are two wholly different concepts. No motors or moving parts are used to adjust ignition timing (these days). The ignition timing is part of the ECU tune and is adjusted electronically via the ECU according to the map.

Valve timing is static and is set by the engine designers when the camshafts are designed and manufactured. Triumphs do not have variable valve timing.

The stepper motor in Triumph's case is a small electric motor (or motors - I can't recall if there's just one or if there's one for each throttle body) whose job it is to make fine adjustments to throttle angle to maintain a stable idle at the target idle speed as programmed within the ECU map. The ECU map provides for a target idle speed which is based upon coolant temperature.

I'll be interested to see how this angle plays out.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:10 AM   #7579
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We are thinking throttle piston sensor
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:11 AM   #7580
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Interesting. The only time my bike had this type of idling problem as shown in this video, went away when I refueled. The tank was on reserve when this happened.

My bike's idling problem, which consistently happens when engine is warm and usually after an idle period stopped at, for example, a red light, happens only when I try to accelerate out of the stop or blip the throttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soph9 View Post
and what it sounds like when we tried to start it yesterday. Cheryl tweaked the throttle cable and no stalls after that for now.


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Old 08-01-2011, 06:28 AM   #7581
The Jerk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Thank you, I appreciate the clarification. Can we say, then, that according to that poster the problem solution involves a software (ECU tune) and a hardware (stepper motor) correction? And what is the actuator?
Lion
Without having the service manual in front of me to confirm, my guess is that the actuator is basically the mechanical linkage between the stepper motor and the throttle.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:09 AM   #7582
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
I can't say it enough: file a complaint with the NHTSA or Triumph will not acknowledge the problem but will keep trying to fix on a one by one basis.

It doesn't take long and might one day safe a life. Maybe it's someone you know ...

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Your excellent comments need repeating!!!!!!


I reviewed three 800 forums and have seen only one person with a stalling bike who said they reported it to the NHTSA.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:16 AM   #7583
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I agree that TPS, idle stepper motor, tune, idle speed, TB balance etc could be the problem and this might be a bit left field here, but has anyone considered Oxygenated fuels as a potential culprit.
We don't get it here in Oz and I don't really understand how it effects engine running, but the service manual says that it can effect engine starting and running and also performance and fuel consuption
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:23 AM   #7584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhula View Post
I agree that TPS, idle stepper motor, tune, idle speed, TB balance etc could be the problem and this might be a bit left field here, but has anyone considered Oxygenated fuels as a potential culprit.
We don't get it here in Oz and I don't really understand how it effects engine running, but the service manual says that it can effect engine starting and running and also performance and fuel consuption
Have any Oz Tigger owners reported stalling issues ?
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:29 AM   #7585
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I have informed Triumph Canada who has informed Triumph USA as to what is going on and I also said we are finishing our trip with the potential stalling issue unresolved. No one here in Whitehorse can really help us with a Triumph bike so we are going to leave Whitehorse today and start heading home.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:48 AM   #7586
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I don't know if this provides any helpful information concerning the stalling problem, but I had my first and only potential related issue on Friday.

Situation was as follows: soaking wet roads due to recent rain, temps in the low 80s with high humidity, and I got stuck in stop and go traffic for about an hour. The Tiger got very, very hot -- coolant temp never got above the usual level, but there was a high level of heat coming off the engine and frame. After a while, the idle, which has always been quite steady at about 1100rpm, started fluctuating a bit, and I found the bike a little reluctant to rev when letting out the clutch (found myself having to give it a little more gas than usual and let out the clutch a little more slowly). Eventually traffic cleared up and I got moving again, but even after riding on open roads for ten or fifteen minutes with plenty of airflow to cool the bike off a bit, the idle would still fluctuate when pulling up to stop signs, and once dipped down below 800rpm as though it was about to die, but I blipped the throttle in time to keep it running (lots of practice at this -- I own a Bonneville, which requires the same technique before it's thoroughly warmed up).

After turning the bike off and letting it sit for ten or fifteen minutes, it restarted normally, and while the idle wasn't spot on, it only fluctuated by 100rpm or so. After letting it sit for 20 minutes or so, it ran normally.

And Saturday I took it for a 300-mile ride (during which I turned over 10,000 miles) and it ran perfectly normally all day.

What I take away from this is that the problem is caused by excessive heat, on my bike at least -- and it would not surprise me to learn that the stepper motor is the culprit. Perhaps it just can't take getting that hot. Under normal conditions, there's more than enough airflow to keep things at a reasonable temperature, but in stop and go traffic, the engine ends up throwing off so much heat that all the electronics cook.

--mark
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:10 AM   #7587
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In our case the temps we have been riding in have been really cool borderline cold. Hardly any traffic when we the engine dies and the idle dips below 1200. Seems like there are many scenarios going on and Triumph I am sure will figure this out for every one.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:08 AM   #7588
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Originally Posted by soph9 View Post
and what it sounds like when we tried to start it yesterday. Cheryl tweaked the throttle cable and no stalls after that for now.


Sorry to hear about how this is affecting your trip. Hope you have safe travels.

Until this point I have held off posting on this issue, but my bike has been plagued with the EXACT same issue shown in the video since the day I picked it up from the dealer. Normal ambient temp, bike in neutral (or clutch in) and the bike just dies. The only remedy that I've seen is twisting the throttle a bit to give it more gas.

Thankfully for me, it does not happen regularly but only somewhat sporadically - only about a dozen times over the 3 months / 3,500 miles on the bike, but it is still somewhat annoying to be at a red light and suddenly have the bike stall, light turns green and traffic is backing up behind you as you try to restart your bike.

It really does seem to me like a pretty widespread issue - hopefully Triumph can resolve soon because these really are otherwise great bikes!
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:18 AM   #7589
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I only have about 260 miles on my 800xc, but I have not had any stalling issues as of yet *knock on wood*. The only issue I had was the helmet vibe at freeway speeds from the stock windscreen. I wouldn't call it buffeting because it felt more like if you took one of those electric back massagers that vibrate and put it at the base of your neck... I redrilled the windscreen and all is good now.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:44 AM   #7590
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I only have about 260 miles on my 800xc, but I have not had any stalling issues as of yet *knock on wood*. The only issue I had was the helmet vibe at freeway speeds from the stock windscreen. I wouldn't call it buffeting because it felt more like if you took one of those electric back massagers that vibrate and put it at the base of your neck... I redrilled the windscreen and all is good now.
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