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Old 10-16-2011, 09:53 PM   #16
hpsVFR
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Originally Posted by tgeliot View Post
Wow. That's a pretty severe indictment of textiles. Which is of course what I have, because I was ever so smart and chose high-vis textile over black leather.
I don't see a severe indictment of textiles in what I read, though the translation doesn't make it easy to interpret their results. What I see is more-or-less what we already knew:

1. It doesn't matter how strong or abrasion-resistant your material is if the seams pop apart when you hit the ground.

2. padding is important

3. train so that you can avoid the fall

I think also that we pretty much knew that leather suits provide the best protection, provided that they're properly made and well cared-for. Leather suits don't necessarily provide some of the other benefits of textile gear (hi-viz has been hard to get, airflow management is more difficult, it's heavy, it doesn't handle wet/dry cycles very well, etc.).

I'm also going to assume that these tests involved only new gear. Repeating the tests on leather and textiles which have seen thousands of miles of road use may change the results, due to aging of materials, etc. It may change the results in ways that further favor leather (due to the susceptibility of some textile materials to UV damage) or in ways that favor textiles (due to their superior stability in the face of wet/dry cycles and dirt/sweat)..

In the end, selecting safety equipment is always going to be an exercise in compromise. The key is to be well-informed about the compromises we're making, so we can select the gear best suited to our particular situation.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by David Shapiro View Post
Underscores the use of Kevlar mesh, for me.

David
I read somewhere that Kevlar is good at resisting penetration, hence its use in body armor, but not particularly good at resisting abrasion, and that you're better off with heavy Cordura.

Sorry, I don't have a source for this at my fingertips.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:33 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by tgeliot View Post
I read somewhere that Kevlar is good at resisting penetration, hence its use in body armor, but not particularly good at resisting abrasion, and that you're better off with heavy Cordura.

Sorry, I don't have a source for this at my fingertips.
Kevlar is good for bulletproof vests (and other things) because of it's high tensile strength. Kevlar's tensile strength is much higher than Cordura's. OTOH, Cordura stretches more than Kevlar (which can be an advantage in abrasion resistance).

There's more to it than just this (both Kevlar and Cordura are families of fibers, each member of which has different properties), but your'e right: if you were to use a straight-weave, 100% Kevlar fabric versus a 100% straight-weave Cordura fabric for abrasion testing, the Cordura would almost certainly win handily.

Quality Kevlar gear isn't 100% straight-weave Kevlar, and the weave (or knit, if it's a knit fabric) and blending fibers can substantially alter the performance of the protective system. That's the goal here, to assemble a protective system for riding. We're not doing ourselves any favors by concentrating on the data-sheet for one raw material of the system, and ignoring the other factors involved in modifying the properties of the system.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:53 AM   #19
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Question

Anders,

What kind of jacket? Couldn't tell whether there were any straps around sleeve to help keep armor in place. Summary of your injuries, if any? Thanks for sharing.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:57 AM   #20
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Not sure we're learning anything new here: leather is the best protection, various fabrics less so, proper armor is needed no matter how great the outer skin is at preventing abrasion. I think this can easily be deduced by looking at what racers wear. On the other hand, most of us don't leap out the back of trucks very often, and in the real world there are all sorts of various accidents that are not as severe. Most crashes are close to home at slow speeds. The HURT report said:

"The median pre-crash speed was 29.8 mph, and the median crash speed was 21.5 mph, and
the one-in-a-thousand crash speed is approximately 86 mph."
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:02 PM   #21
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Phil
It's a Firstgear Rainier nothing to hold the armer in place. Shoulder,ankle hand.
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:17 PM   #22
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Anders288, I guess I missed something so please bear with me. You had a 60 mph get off and walked with no or little injury? I won't debate the use of leather, kevlar or what ever and we all have to use what we can afford and have the safety we are comfortable with.

I understand the concern about the armor, but a lot of jackets have better retention for the armor, might not be perfect, but,,,,,,,,,

I hear folks gripe about gear getting trashed but they are unscathed or have minor to only annoying injury. Sounds like it did its job to me. Life is a comprimise, safety, cost, protection, venting and many factors go into gear. Just asking your take.

Cheers
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:44 PM   #23
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I was only on the asphalt for about 15 feet before getting on the grass. I have been down at over 125 on the track and have always walked away


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Old 10-17-2011, 08:01 PM   #24
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Track is for the most part a differnt critter though. Speeds are much higher.
FWIW, it really is safer too. Less furniture, no texting drivers, traffic all going the same way, yadda yadda.

Glad you are OK. Thanks for the response.

Cheers
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Old 10-17-2011, 10:25 PM   #25
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additional info

A few extra facts from the 2007 test:
The abrasion damage was mostly (large) holes, not ripped seams (see pics in the pdf file). The Rukka 'ArmaX' (and others) apparently also abraded in spots without protectors, hence the conclusion that there would have been skin or soft tissue damage.
The test report acknowledges that abrasions resistance won't prevent broken bones, and that their setup didn't test for that.
The leather jeans were of the type marketed to bikers, but without protectors (Held 'Tucson' leather jeans, 135 Euros).

The more I think about this, and the kind of traffic I'm moving through, the more I'm convinced my next investment should be in some extra lights for the bike. (Already got the reflective tape, and the more conspicuous paint for the side cases.)
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:28 PM   #26
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I've been riding for 25 years in various weather, situations etc etc....I have always had textile equipment and been pretty pleased with it. Since I got in the US, I discovered the Roadcrafter, bought one and love it. It is one of the most versatile piece of equipment I owned.
Few months ago I opened up a store in Minneapolis, selling Segura motorcycle leather jackets and other gear.
So I've been riding with a leather jacket since and like it for the feel of it and the look but mostly around town and short trips.
Last Sunday/Monday needed to take a trip from Minneapolis to Chicago and back. Decided to ride, the season is coming to end.
Cool weather in the 50's and 40's during evening ride. First came in mind to gear up as usual for long trips, silk, fleece, roadcrafter, but men I'm selling motorcycle gear, so let's leather up. Picked up a pair of pants from the store, zipped it up to the jacket. The overall feel and look was pretty good.
First thing I noticed, leather is tight fit and doesn't leave much room for working different layers configuration. Found the right balance, took off, had a great ride down and back to chicago...The leathers worked really good, surprised me for the comfort they offer on a long trip. It feels safe, I didn't miss my Stich when riding, but when I got to Chicago for the few hours I was there, I was in full leather gear not the best for city sidewalk and going to the meeting I needed to attend.
Bottom line having both is great, pro and con both ways, the big con for leathers would be heat, above 80's, I'm not sure about wearing them. But there is "something" about leather that can't be matched by textile.
In term of safety, as it has been said earlier, look at road racing and we have an answer.
On my website, I'll post a detail gear review for those interested.

Fabrice.
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MotoandCo screwed with this post 10-18-2011 at 01:38 PM
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
Not surprising... but if you wear full leathers where I live, you will suffer from heat stroke while riding.

.
Have you used perforated leather ?
I have both textile and leather gear. The perfed leather gets the most use in summer.
To me there is nothing worse than being covered in textile on a hot day.

If you want to know what material works best to protect your body from pavement ,just look to the racetrack . Its all leather.
If something better comes along Im sure they'll be using it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoandCo View Post
Bottom line having both is great, pro and con both ways, the big con for leathers would be heat, above 80's, I'm not sure about wearing them. But there is "something" about leather that can't be matched by textile.
In other words, leather looks cool, but textile is cool.
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:47 PM   #29
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You got me to thinking and that is kind of dangerous. We all wear what we think is best and has proven itself to us.
I frequently ride all the Gulf Coast states, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas and the ocasional run from Texas to Minnesota. I wear the same thing. A textile jacket with varying under garments. This seems to work from the 40"s to the worst heat and humidity that the coast can drum up.
It would seem that the Germans are promoting their leather, armor and such. It is like going to Amsoil for oil info, or Motoport or Aerostitch for safety gear and holding their "fact" as gospel. Not bad info by any means, one just needs to remember where they are reading it and use it to make your own mind up.

This is a great thread.

Happy reading
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:59 PM   #30
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BMW is selling a lot of textile suits...

Those Germans (Bavarians, actually, as us other Germans would like to point out) with their Lederhosen! I don't think the 'General German Automobile Club' is trying to push leather suits, although it is true that some swabian made-to-measure leather suit ranked first in their test. But BMW sells an awful lot of textile suits.... Incidentally their headquarter and that of the ADAC auto club are in the same town (Munich).
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