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Old 12-19-2011, 09:11 AM   #16
LuciferMutt
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Sticky situation for the HD lawyers. It would be nice to say that her crappy helmet caused the extensive injuries. But I'll be the crappy helmet is proudly adorned with the HD logo.

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Old 12-19-2011, 09:31 AM   #17
andy29847
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The ABS light comes on if you have it. I'm just trying to figure out how the hell locking the rear wheel catapults your wife 35 feet off the bike.

Seems to me this was a pretty clear case of rider error. It sucks for the wife, but unless the bike's bill of sale says it had ABS, the dealer and the MoCo are blameless.
Panic braking, rear end swings around, rider lets off brake, tires grab, passengers fly.

The ABS lights I have seen come on when the ignition is turned on, then go off (unless there is a problem with the ABS).

It is dumber than shit to have an ABS light on a bike that does not have ABS.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:08 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy29847 View Post
Panic braking, rear end swings around, rider lets off brake, tires grab, passengers fly.

The ABS lights I have seen come on when the ignition is turned on, then go off (unless there is a problem with the ABS).

It is dumber than shit to have an ABS light on a bike that does not have ABS.
From how I read the article, its not a light. It is a cutout on the dial where there could be a light on a model with ABS equipped. It is the exact same in my SUV (and all other vehicles I have owned). It has cutouts that I can see for different symbols that stand for "hill start assist", "4x4", "differential locked", and "4LO". I do not have 4x4, so none of these has ever lit up. But when sunlight hits them at a certain angle I can see that they are there. At no point have I ever thought I actually had 4x4 though, you know, because there was a cutout on the dash.

Either way, I am sad for the passenger and family. At no point did she do anything that caused this (not arguing about helmets/gear). And really, no matter the reason, does anyone truly DESERVE to die because of their riding/riding habits?
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:10 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by andy29847 View Post
Panic braking, rear end swings around, rider lets off brake, tires grab, passengers fly.
Yeah, pretty classic high-side, except the rider doesn't have to "let off" the rear brake.

Depending on which way the bike swings, his foot could have been forced off the brake when it hit the ground (bike swung to the left, brake side down) or he parted company with the bike. OR, even if he was still holding the brake pedal down, the tire hooks up and the bottom of the sideways bike is now stationary. This is why you don't keep mashing the rear brake and assume a lowside is the worst thing that can happen.

Quote:
It is dumber than shit to have an ABS light on a bike that does not have ABS.
Pssst- They all do- and I don't just mean "all Harleys". I bet every bike built where ABS is an option, has a place on the dash for the ABS light, that simply doesn't light up if ABS isn't installed.

IMHO, HD has to fight this on personal responsibility grounds- it's the rider's responsibility to operate the bike. Otherwise, they're open to lawsuits from every dipshit that has, or will, lay 'er down, from now on.

The interesting part may be hearing whether or not the rider had ever taken (and passed) any training. Not that it figures into the lawsuit- if he did, then HD is covered- he learned how to ride; if not, it's not HD's fault, because training was available. Neat, huh?
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by blackx70 View Post
Does not matter what the salesman said. When you by a vehicle, there is a disclaimer that basicly says that anything the salesman said was BS.

I guess I have missed the BS clause in all my sales contracts....

Ajury could feel sympathetic to them if its proven the dealership miss represented the options on the bike....still not an excuse for the accident.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:19 AM   #21
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So the light comes on when you have ABS and yes, it's a cutout behind the gauge so you can sort of see it when it's not lit. It remains lit until you move x amount of feet. I've forgotten how far but about 10 I think.

There is a wire attached to the brake line, a reluctor ring, big ass ABS pumps under the side cover, a frickin DVD that comes with the bike to 'teach' you how to use ABS and I'm sure something else.

The light does not come on when you don't have an ABS equipped bike.

People will sue for anything just like rolling the dice... he might win or they might settle.

It's why every other sentence in the HD manual says "failure to do so may cause serious injury or death"

I'm sorry for his loss, but dammit, quit making it our problem.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:23 AM   #22
'05Train
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Originally Posted by andy29847 View Post
It is dumber than shit to have an ABS light on a bike that does not have ABS.
Absolutely, and I'm not aware of any bike or car that has that. However, the gauges are the same whether or not you have ABS. You'll find that's the case on any bike.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:34 AM   #23
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I don't see how a functioning or non-functioning ABS system is grounds for a claim in the event of a crash. ABS systems don't eliminate driver or rider error. People crash ABS equipped vehicles all the time. People crash non-ABS vehicles all the time too.

This is particularly peculiar because, as one poster stated, ABS is supposed to provide superior braking power. There must be another reason the passenger fell off the bike. Maybe she wasn't holding on and the driver used up all his brakes to maximum effect?

Motorcycle manufacturers shouldn't be held liable for rider error.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:39 AM   #24
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REAL ISSUE THAT WILL BE PROVED IN COURT (caps because I hate this topic due to the idiot HD rider and his idiot claim):
----
judge: "expert witness, please tell us from the photos and statements taken at the scene of the accident, what caused this accident to occur?"
expert: "well sir, the photos show the motorcycle engaged the brakes too heavily due to his excessive entry speed into the corner. the tires locked up and the bike skidded into the guardrail, where upon the passenger was thrown from the bike. unfortunately, the passenger's helmet was not sufficient to absorb the impact and that is what caused the sustained injuries."

judge: "would ABS on the bike have prevented this accident?"
expert: "ABS would not have factored into this accident due to the excessive corner entry speed, which can be proved by start location and amount of rubber left from the tire skid points on the pavement. ABS would not have sufficiently slowed the bike down to prevent this accident, although ABS would have prevented the duration of the skid it would not have changed the point of impact."
----

I'm sorry for this guy's loss, no one deserves to have a loved one hurt from two-up riding, but the claim about ABS is just ridiculous. Every time I get on my F800 I look at the ABS switch light up and I verify it's functionality. On my bikes that don't have ABS I don't see that light - simple logical assumption that ABS doesn't exist (aside from factually knowing about the existence or lack there-of on the different bikes).
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:42 AM   #25
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Litigious morons are everywhere. Sucks about their issues, but it is, after all, a motorcycle and they can be dangerous.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thematt View Post
REAL ISSUE THAT WILL BE PROVED IN COURT (caps because I hate this topic due to the idiot HD rider and his idiot claim):
----
judge: "expert witness, please tell us from the photos and statements taken at the scene of the accident, what caused this accident to occur?"
expert: "well sir, the photos show the motorcycle engaged the brakes too heavily due to his excessive entry speed into the corner. the tires locked up and the bike skidded into the guardrail, where upon the passenger was thrown from the bike. unfortunately, the passenger's helmet was not sufficient to absorb the impact and that is what caused the sustained injuries."

judge: "would ABS on the bike have prevented this accident?"
expert: "ABS would not have factored into this accident due to the excessive corner entry speed, which can be proved by start location and amount of rubber left from the tire skid points on the pavement. ABS would not have sufficiently slowed the bike down to prevent this accident, although ABS would have prevented the duration of the skid it would not have changed the point of impact."
----

I'm sorry for this guy's loss, no one deserves to have a loved one hurt from two-up riding, but the claim about ABS is just ridiculous. Every time I get on my F800 I look at the ABS switch light up and I verify it's functionality. On my bikes that don't have ABS I don't see that light - simple logical assumption that ABS doesn't exist (aside from factually knowing about the existence or lack there-of on the different bikes).


The road is straight where the accident happened.

Perhaps the bike wasn't assembled properly and his abs light was coming on during key on?

I've seen people wire the seatbelt light on cars into the check engine light to pass smog.

Maybe Harley will do linked brakes after they settle this case?
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:55 AM   #27
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Accidents happen but its not always someone elses fault. Too many people mess up and then want to be paid out for their mess. Bad for his wife but its a bike not a cuddly toy.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:34 AM   #28
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Sigh... I don't know. I am a believer in personal responsibility and taking ownership of your own errors. However, this isn't so cut and dried.

If a bike has ABS and there is an emergency, you hit the brakes hard. Because you don't have to worry about them locking up, there is no problem with letting up on the brake if conditions allow it. A person who knows they have ABS will use them as intended. There is no reason to consider negative consequences of letting off the brake in mid-stop.

On a bike without ABS, you know that if you lock the rear, you must keep it locked. Letting off is the way to a high-side and propelling your wife 35 feet to her near death. You don't let up mid-stop. It is a different technique for different bikes.

So this guy claims (note the operative word here), he thought it had ABS and presumably riding with a technique that is perfectly appropriate for a bike with that system. According to the article (which could be wrong), he was riding correctly for a bike with ABS.

So now Harley is claiming that it is unreasonable to expect them to build a bike with two different tachometers? Really? That doesn't seem to unreasonable to me. They built them with two different braking systems, didn't they? I can certainly see how a person could see a cut-out that reads "ABS" could think the bike has ABS.

Yes, the owner should have looked into it a bit more and should have practiced with it to ensure he knew how it worked, but this really sounds like something Harley should have been able to forsee. A warning light that doesn't light up tells a lot of people the system is working just fine. That's what the cut-out looked like to this guy.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:41 AM   #29
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Litigious morons are everywhere.

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Old 12-19-2011, 11:43 AM   #30
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ABS light is where?

I believe this is a road glide dash. If so, where is the ABS light? I believe that is is on the warning light strip between the instruments. Just guessing, is that the neutral and battery lights we see lit? In any event, these instruments do not seem to be clearly labeled.

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