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Old 01-21-2012, 10:17 PM   #1396
KSBEERHUNTER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkWombat View Post
Well Jap bikes have had nikasil bores for nearly 2 decades now. They last forever and are repairable. I think a lot of the water cooled paranoia is unjustified. If evolution and improvement were so evil we would still be riding horses.
Replaceable not repairable! I had dirt bikes in the 70s with the Nikasil bores. They were not then and not now repairable!
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:16 PM   #1397
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Originally Posted by pmelby View Post
Did you enjoy splitting your 1150 in half to replace the clutch?

I can think of at least three good reasons to ditch the dry clutch:
1. More robust, able to operate in the friction zone, without fear of damage
2. No worry about a rear main seal leak destroying the clutch
3. Better access to the slave cylinder (will probably be external)

Cons also come to mind:
1. Engine and clutch/tranny using the same oil

The new boxer motor design is clearly a response to the challenges presented by the competitors, Ducati, KTM, Triumph, Yamaha, etc.

I also think that the oilhead, hexhead, camhead motors and bikes were and are still great machines. There is no reason that the new generation boxer won't be good as well.

cheers,
melby
The tranny has to be pulled. Just like all rear wheel drive trucks, tractors , cars etc. Dry clutches have been around as long as autos have been made. There is nothing wrong with a dry clutch. Rear main seals going out are not good however. I have not had a rear main seal go out of anything I have owned and I am 57yrs old. What happens when a rear seal goes out on your new water cooled, wet clutch bike? Let it leak? Wet clutches are an after thought to save money and room. Ask NHRA drag racers and Nascar teams how many have wet clutches in there cars? If it was better in any way they all would be using them no matter what the cost so, why not? Wet clutches make about as much since as wet brakes! What happens when they slip and cook the fluid inside? Maybe you should recommend to BMW and the rest of the world to water cool the clutch too. And the new water cooled bike is not even out yet but, how is it that replacing the clutch will be so easy. The gears and clutch are still powered by the crankshaft, look at the pictures. The transmission still has to be out of the way to replace the clutch which appears to be on top of the gears.
Have you ever had an automatic transmission go out? Expensive isn't it? It is never the gears it is the bands and clutches that run in automatic transmission fluid that go out even when they have a transmission cooler.
Next tell us how belt drives are so much better than drive shafts. The drive shaft is so hard to replace vs a belt! After all, every auto maker around the world uses belts now don't they in the name of progress and improvement.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:30 PM   #1398
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Originally Posted by Kawidad View Post
If it has a cassette style transmission, then the answer is yes. You just drop the oil pan (so to speak) and the transmission components come with it. No need to remove the engine or split the bike in half.
Yea right. Just "drop the pan off and the gears come with it". Don't have to worry anbout the drive shaft, linkage final drive or anything. Those gears will just move toward the rear of the engine case and just come right out. Look at the pictures of the engine/transmission gears and clutch. What do you think holds the gears in place? Looks like bolts to me.

KSBEERHUNTER screwed with this post 01-21-2012 at 11:35 PM
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:40 PM   #1399
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Just watched a German Eicma interview with Von Kuehnheim on 1000PS YouTube,
he made no effort in hiding his disappointment with Triumph ~"a brand with such a history
could have come up with something unique and not a simple copy" I guess he has to say that and
I think I agree. He also said that new BMW models will not only defend (not good enough) but will enlarge BMW's market...
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:58 PM   #1400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallguy-09 View Post
Just watched a German Eicma interview with Von Kuehnheim on 1000PS YouTube,
he made no effort in hiding his disappointment with Triumph ~"a brand with such a history
could have come up with something unique and not a simple copy" I guess he has to say that and
I think I agree. He also said that new BMW models will not only defend (not good enough) but will enlarge BMW's market...
the square off will produce better motorcycles from both.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:59 PM   #1401
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Originally Posted by peter-k View Post
+1



BTW., the new w/c boxer costs less to produce. Everything is in one casing, cheaper clutch. The relatively small water collars and the few extra parts are cheap.
Correct!! But, they will first fill you up with how much better it is than previous models and charge a couple of thousand more for it. The final drive looks just like the old one on the outside. This doesn't make all final drives bad. Wet clutch will not make all dry clutches bad either. Dry clutches were used from 1923-2012 by BMW and if they are changing them now it is not because they last so much longer and are better. I think BMW should have made better rear main seals and used different clutch material. BMW does not want to make them last forever and cut out their dealer's mechanics ability to make a living.
I am looking forward to watching and learning what the problem areas are going to be with this new design. I hope for BMWs sake they have solved the problem areas that have shown up in the past and admit it when they show up. Hell, they won't even admit there is a final drive problem. BMW has lost a lot of respect over the years that the airheads and classics had established.
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:43 AM   #1402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSBEERHUNTER View Post
Replaceable not repairable! I had dirt bikes in the 70s with the Nikasil bores. They were not then and not now repairable!
Ummm... Have a quick google for 'Nikasil replating' and tell me what you think.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:34 AM   #1403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSBEERHUNTER View Post
...... Ask NHRA drag racers and Nascar teams how many have wet clutches in there cars? If it was better in any way they all would be using them no matter what the cost so, why not? Wet clutches make about as much since as wet brakes! ......
I guess that if you are convinced that NHRA and NASCAR represent the pinnacle of automotive engineering innovation, it is a waste of my time trying to explain to you some of the benefits of a wet clutch/cassette type transmission.

cheers,
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:09 AM   #1404
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I think beer hunter needs to do a little more hunting and a little less posting.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:39 AM   #1405
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You could argue that the old represents the past and the long BMW history and the new represents the future.
I still prefer a good mechanical (automatic) watch over a digital one with battery
so I'm definitely torn apart when seeing such long history changing direction pretty
drastically....
To me nothing was wrong with the separate Getrag transmission and the dry clutch works well most of the time. Not having to worry about water is no disadvantage either.
Looking forward to test ride the 2013 and most probably all complaints will vanish?
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:54 AM   #1406
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Having a strong gut feeling based strongly on recent history.

Started with the R1200GS and after discovering...or comming to the realization that they had a winner which gave them (BMW) the imputus to really go for it, the current CamHead is an outstanding motorcycle. look what the S1000RR has done and ride reports that the stock 2012 S1000RR is everybit as good as the fully race preped earlier ones. Then there is the K16's. That should give even the naysayers pause if they would even open their eyes slightly.

I suspect that the upcomming Water Boxers will continue with BMW's string of home runs. Look to the same with their new scooters.

I for one will be trying out one of the first to hit our shores.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:36 AM   #1407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSBEERHUNTER View Post
Correct!! But, they will first fill you up with how much better it is than previous models and charge a couple of thousand more for it.
My guess is the new one will cost a couple of hundreds more than the "old" one.

MOTORRAD writes the gearbox comes from China, Getrag does not want to make motorcycle gearboxes anymore. There might be some other parts as well they buy in China in the future. Cast aluminium is much cheaper there. How about the casing for the swing arm?
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:45 AM   #1408
tallguy-09
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Originally Posted by peter-k View Post
My guess is the new one will cost a couple of hundreds more than the "old" one.

MOTORRAD writes the gearbox comes from China, Getrag does not want to make motorcycle gearboxes anymore. There might be some other parts as well they buy in China in the future. Cast aluminium is much cheaper there. How about the casing for the swing arm?
It comes from China? Then I want to pay Chinese pricing ;-)
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:23 AM   #1409
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FWIW the word I got at the NYC MC show was 2014 model year for the water boxer. Not necessarily the GS.
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:24 PM   #1410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB View Post
I don't know what bike insurance is like in BC where you live, but over here in Ontario, most bike insurance companies will not insure Ducati's and the few that do, bring some vaseline with you... I thought the MTS1200 might be my next bike till I got an insurance quote... a high of $4500 to a low of $2500 / year. Ducati's are considered "supersport".. Thieves
I'm a couple days behind on this thread. I ran into the same issue on the MTS when one gave me the (serious) itch last year. IIRC, it was like six times as much to insure as my '02 1150. Even if you factor out age, that's a pile of money. BUT, that was from Allstate. The dealer was able to get a quote from GMAC that was liveable. Even with the improved performance of the wasserboxer, I seriously doubt we'll see a "supersport" classification for the WC GS or RT. An RS? Maybe.

Funny to read the comments that the MTS is not a tall guy's bike. I'm 5'7", and the "in cabin" ergos are perfect for me. No stepladder comments.

Quote:
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Multiblabla
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