War time hacks

[madeouttaglass]

Originally Posted by zundappuk

If by that you mean a Kettenkrad, then yes

David

Damn you!!! Ve demand to zee your papers UND! more pictures order kopfen vill rrroll!

[MotoJ]

Originally Posted by bmwhacker

Old Russian POS. I don't think there is any way to date those things. I'm not sure what it is but not a BMW.
A guy with a lot of time and money might be able to graft a different engine into it.
A lot of things missing and the engine was a rusted up mess.
Only way i would haul it home was for free.

I was looking at the pics of this RPOC again. Was the sidecar tub there? I didn't notice. Anyway, on the tank- that looks like the aircleaner feature- just above the tool box lid. A snorkel, for crossing streams. That's rare, and definitely makes it a military model M-72 (the tank anyway). The front wheel stand is a military feature too, as is the sidecar frame loop that was already mentioned. Did you notice any Soviet "star" stampings on the motor anywhere?

As a matter of fact, looking at the motor close-ups again, the castings actually look pretty nice. Much nicer than my later M72. Did you notice any markings anywhere? What did the carbs say? Were they CCCP K37s, or were they German Bings? It could conceivably be a BMW R71, although that is pretty unlikely. That air cleaner and fender are really intriguing. If I lived close I'd drop by with my truck and $750 (maybe even a thou) and get a nice project to keep myself outta trouble.

So whatever happened? Is it still lying around in the guy's barn in pieces? It looks all there- someone needs to rescue and resurrect the old girl. They clean up pretty well- a little rust is NBD. They were made to run despite all kinds of abuse. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3SSgIEI4PE

If you were up for it, you could probably get that collection of parts up and running for $2-3K. Not restored, but a good runner. Parts are available. How many other 50-60 year old vehicles can that be said about these days? Sorry- looking at that old neglected bike makes me feel the same way I do looking at the SPCA dogs for rescue!

[oppozit]

Originally Posted by MotoJ

I was looking at the pics of this RPOC again. Was the sidecar tub there? I didn't notice. Anyway, on the tank- that looks like the aircleaner feature- just above the tool box lid. A snorkel, for crossing streams. That's rare, and definitely makes it a military model M-72 (the tank anyway). The front wheel stand is a military feature too, as is the sidecar frame loop that was already mentioned. Did you notice any Soviet "star" stampings on the motor anywhere?

As a matter of fact, looking at the motor close-ups again, the castings actually look pretty nice. Much nicer than my later M72. Did you notice any markings anywhere? What did the carbs say? Were they CCCP K37s, or were they German Bings? It could conceivably be a BMW R71, although that is pretty unlikely. That air cleaner and fender are really intriguing. If I lived close I'd drop by with my truck and $750 (maybe even a thou) and get a nice project to keep myself outta trouble.

Neither the front wheel stand, nor the overarn sidecar frame indicate a military model. They merely give a date range for production The overarm sidecar frame was introduced in 1942-3 to replace the stub axle (which was prone to smapping off,). IMZ made the M-72 from 1951 onwards for Government and private use. The overarm sidecar frame remained in production until 1956/7 when the M-72M and M-72N were introduced with torsion bar swingarms. Your "aircleaner" seems to be sitting on top of the fuel opening. An unlikely place for an aircleaner. The usual spot for aircleaners when tank mounted was the toolbox. Rare was a military tank aircleaner. They were also used on the M-72K (Kross) and they are just as rare.
Dating information is often found inside the electrical components.

Also no BMW R71 was ever produced with rear plunger reinforcements.

[fyr]

Originally Posted by zundappuk

If by that you mean a Kettenkrad, then yes

David

Good eye retroone!
Lets see that too!

[D.Bachtel]

Originally Posted by D.Bachtel

I could use the frame, should be easier to bolt up to my Zundapp than my Danish ACAP that was intended for a Nimbus flat stock frame.

Should anyone happen to do a recovery let me know..... have trailer will drive.


Don in Nipomo

I'm still game..

[MotoJ]

Originally Posted by oppozit

Neither the front wheel stand, nor the overarn sidecar frame indicate a military model. They merely give a date range for production The overarm sidecar frame was introduced in 1942-3 to replace the stub axle (which was prone to smapping off,). IMZ made the M-72 from 1951 onwards for Government and private use. The overarm sidecar frame remained in production until 1956/7 when the M-72M and M-72N were introduced with torsion bar swingarms. Your "aircleaner" seems to be sitting on top of the fuel opening. An unlikely place for an aircleaner. The usual spot for aircleaners when tank mounted was the toolbox. Rare was a military tank aircleaner. They were also used on the M-72K (Kross) and they are just as rare.
Dating information is often found inside the electrical components.

Also no BMW R71 was ever produced with rear plunger reinforcements.

Thanks for the corrections! None of those items definitely indicate a military model- my mistake. They are features more prevalent on military models, though. As you pointed out, IMZ did make the M72 for both military and private use, but KMZ M72 production was mostly military. The wheel hubs are KMZ. If this is a 50s bike, then IMZ had switched to the bottlecap type by then. With the overarm sidecar frame, wheel stand, and Dnepr hubs, it's a better than average chance the bike is a military model, which means better metalurgy and quality control. There's lots of drab painted M72Ms out there but not many true military models, especially in the US. The star stamps would tell. If the owner really did bring it back in the fifties that makes a better chance it's authentic military too.
I'd like to see pics of the tub if it's there, too. Mounts for guns, ammo boxes, etc. on the tub would be a giveaway.

My point was that this pile would be worth the time to get back on it's feet. I suppose there's no way to tell for sure the provenance.

I'd like to know what that "air cleaner" feature is- some kind of vented gas cap? It looks like it was engineered to fit there for some reason.

[fyr]

Ive googled it but-
Are there any specific forums dedicated to military out fits (or bikes for that matter)?

[bmwhacker]

Originally Posted by MotoJ

Thanks for the corrections! None of those items definitely indicate a military model- my mistake. They are features more prevalent on military models, though. As you pointed out, IMZ did make the M72 for both military and private use, but KMZ M72 production was mostly military. The wheel hubs are KMZ. If this is a 50s bike, then IMZ had switched to the bottlecap type by then. With the overarm sidecar frame, wheel stand, and Dnepr hubs, it's a better than average chance the bike is a military model, which means better metalurgy and quality control. There's lots of drab painted M72Ms out there but not many true military models, especially in the US. The star stamps would tell. If the owner really did bring it back in the fifties that makes a better chance it's authentic military too.
I'd like to see pics of the tub if it's there, too. Mounts for guns, ammo boxes, etc. on the tub would be a giveaway.

My point was that this pile would be worth the time to get back on it's feet. I suppose there's no way to tell for sure the provenance.

I'd like to know what that "air cleaner" feature is- some kind of vented gas cap? It looks like it was engineered to fit there for some reason.

The "air cleaner" on top of the tank is actually an old tin bowl covering the hole for the missing gas cap.
I'm sure a person could obtain the old hulk in its' entirety but the owner said he was offered $2000.00 for it last year and turned it down.
He refuses to piece any of it out.
I'd really have to want it bad to pay that amount....money talks, so a guy might get it cheaper.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

I met a fellow here in Winnipeg that approached me when I was out & about with my rig back in January (freaky warm weather we had for a few weeks). He said his grandfather in Germany had passed away recently, and that he'd inherited his complete & good condition BMW WWII sidecar rig. It was still in storage in Germany, and he was asking if it was worth it for him having it shipped to Canada! I told him of course... and that even if it cost him a few thousand to ship it, it was very much worth it. I told him as well, that he might be quite surprised what it would fetch if sold. From what he'd said it had been in good running order when put away last (no idea if that's a few years or 20+ we're talking about). I can just imagine how collectible something like this would be... if it's the real deal - anyone see rigs like that ever get advertised/sold and remember what they fetched for a price?

[oppozit]

Originally Posted by MotoJ

Thanks for the corrections! None of those items definitely indicate a military model- my mistake. They are features more prevalent on military models, though. As you pointed out, IMZ did make the M72 for both military and private use, but KMZ M72 production was mostly military. The wheel hubs are KMZ. If this is a 50s bike, then IMZ had switched to the bottlecap type by then. With the overarm sidecar frame, wheel stand, and Dnepr hubs, it's a better than average chance the bike is a military model, which means better metalurgy and quality control. There's lots of drab painted M72Ms out there but not many true military models, especially in the US. The star stamps would tell. If the owner really did bring it back in the fifties that makes a better chance it's authentic military too.
I'd like to see pics of the tub if it's there, too. Mounts for guns, ammo boxes, etc. on the tub would be a giveaway.

My point was that this pile would be worth the time to get back on it's feet. I suppose there's no way to tell for sure the provenance.

I'd like to know what that "air cleaner" feature is- some kind of vented gas cap? It looks like it was engineered to fit there for some reason.

The wheel hubs are the same as used by BMW on the R71, all four M-72 manufacturers and the Chinese on almost all CJ bikes until the present. The bottlecap wheel commenced with the prototype M-72M in 1955. The M72 and M-72M production lines ran concurrently in 1956 and the M-72 line was transferred to the Chinese in 1957, For a period in the late 1950's, early 1960's IMZ bikes also used alloy hubs of a similar design to those used by KMZ up to it's end. They alloy hubs were used on The M-52 and at least some M-61 and posiibly some M-72M,

Star stamps mean very little as lots of normal quality stamps ar star-shaped, Also the different quality of civilian and military production is more of a 1970's, 1980's concern. Lot's of myths floating around about military bikes and few facts.

Also would anyone really believe that in the 1950's, someone actually managed to smuggle a military outfit out the USSR? It's as believable as Arbalet's infamous 1939 KMZ M-72. If you want I can supply you with the M-72 Stalin had made expressly for Winston Churchill with it's LH sidecar - only $30,000!

[bmwhacker]

Originally Posted by MotoJ

I was looking at the pics of this RPOC again. Was the sidecar tub there? I didn't notice. Anyway, on the tank- that looks like the aircleaner feature- just above the tool box lid. A snorkel, for crossing streams. That's rare, and definitely makes it a military model M-72 (the tank anyway). The front wheel stand is a military feature too, as is the sidecar frame loop that was already mentioned. Did you notice any Soviet "star" stampings on the motor anywhere?

As a matter of fact, looking at the motor close-ups again, the castings actually look pretty nice. Much nicer than my later M72. Did you notice any markings anywhere? What did the carbs say? Were they CCCP K37s, or were they German Bings? It could conceivably be a BMW R71, although that is pretty unlikely. That air cleaner and fender are really intriguing. If I lived close I'd drop by with my truck and $750 (maybe even a thou) and get a nice project to keep myself outta trouble.

So whatever happened? Is it still lying around in the guy's barn in pieces? It looks all there- someone needs to rescue and resurrect the old girl. They clean up pretty well- a little rust is NBD. They were made to run despite all kinds of abuse. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3SSgIEI4PE

If you were up for it, you could probably get that collection of parts up and running for $2-3K. Not restored, but a good runner. Parts are available. How many other 50-60 year old vehicles can that be said about these days? Sorry- looking at that old neglected bike makes me feel the same way I do looking at the SPCA dogs for rescue!

I never pursued anything after looking the bike over. I have a couple other bikes that are requiring attention this winter so the old Russian bike didn't fit in.
The bike is still right where I saw it and probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The owner has never actively tried to sell it. He called me on a whim to look it over. I couldn't really get him to throw a price out....other than the $2 grand he turned down from someone else when he thought it was a BMW. I let him know what I thought the bike was, and told him the value was way below that of a BMW of the same vintage. I didn't want to insult him with any low ball offer so kept my mouth shut.
He never did have the tub for it, just the side car frame and a wheel / tire for it sitting on the porch.

I think the carbs had an "M something" on them. They looked like the old 50's Bings but I'm pretty sure they were not Bings....no "Bing" markings on them anyway. There were serial numbers stamped on the frame and engine. The serial numbers were very large (tall) and stamped crudely....not even in a straight line. I didn't notice any "star" type stampings anywhere.

[zundappuk]

Originally Posted by madeouttaglass

Damn you!!! Ve demand to zee your papers UND! more pictures order kopfen vill rrroll!

I was searching for a Kettenkrad, lets see, must be 14 years ago now. I was working as a sales director in Telecoms and I WAS going to rich (stock options). Via friend in Austria I found an unrestored Kettenkrad in Vienna. It ran (just) and had been used by a fire brigade post war.

Just as I was finalising plans to purchase it the Telecoms bubble burst and my dreams too. Step in a friend of mine who runs a business in Hong Kong. He bought it, and I project managed the rebuild. I look after it and he gets to ride it once or twice a year. It is registered and insured for road use, and of course I take it to shows on his behalf, and give it regular test runs........

As found:



When I delivered it to the restorer



And as it is today in my garage:

[MotoJ]

Originally Posted by bmwhacker

I never pursued anything after looking the bike over. I have a couple other bikes that are requiring attention this winter so the old Russian bike didn't fit in.
The bike is still right where I saw it and probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The owner has never actively tried to sell it. He called me on a whim to look it over. I couldn't really get him to throw a price out....other than the $2 grand he turned down from someone else when he thought it was a BMW. I let him know what I thought the bike was, and told him the value was way below that of a BMW of the same vintage. I didn't want to insult him with any low ball offer so kept my mouth shut.
He never did have the tub for it, just the side car frame and a wheel / tire for it sitting on the porch.

I think the carbs had an "M something" on them. They looked like the old 50's Bings but I'm pretty sure they were not Bings....no "Bing" markings on them anyway. There were serial numbers stamped on the frame and engine. The serial numbers were very large (tall) and stamped crudely....not even in a straight line. I didn't notice any "star" type stampings anywhere.

Well, you've built some pretty cool projects! I perused your site and posts alot when I was putting my airhead outfit together. I'm having fun now with a rolling basket case M72, so I hate seeing them neglected and lonely like this one. Hopefully all the attention here will get someone interested- thanks for the posts!

[fyr]

Great looking resto! I wonder in what capacity this served the fire brigade? Woodlands, rural etc? Brute force tractor puller?
It also looks like an interesting drive for the operator. Levers pedals and controls!
Is that a diesel engine or petrol?

Troop carrier looks slick as well!

Thanks

Originally Posted by zundappuk

I was searching for a Kettenkrad, lets see, must be 14 years ago now. I was working as a sales director in Telecoms and I WAS going to rich (stock options). Via friend in Austria I found an unrestored Kettenkrad in Vienna. It ran (just) and had been used by a fire brigade post war.

Just as I was finalising plans to purchase it the Telecoms bubble burst and my dreams too. Step in a friend of mine who runs a business in Hong Kong. He bought it, and I project managed the rebuild. I look after it and he gets to ride it once or twice a year. It is registered and insured for road use, and of course I take it to shows on his behalf, and give it regular test runs........

As found:



When I delivered it to the restorer



And as it is today in my garage:

[zundappuk]

Hi Guys,

I saw this picture today in a UK newspaper (on-line). The captured BMW R75 is still in the original paint.

David