ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Gear > The Garage
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-17-2012, 06:39 AM   #76
_cy_ OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,799
a balmy 35f degree outside @ 7:15am in Tulsa. 13.31v resting overnight voltage.

lights and heated grips turned on for about 5 seconds. then pressed starter button with choke off. don't want engine to start too soon. battery turns over engine strong ... draw is 124 amp for 3-4 seconds... repeat for 4 cycles.

finally the choke is turned on... R80G/S roars to life!
very impressive performance from Shorai LFX21 AH (pb eq)

but it's only 35f degree outside and bike has only been sitting outside for about 1/2 hour after sitting overnight in a 48f degree garage. still a valid scenario for folks riding to work.



voltage recovering after above load test


_cy_ screwed with this post 03-24-2012 at 06:19 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 07:41 AM   #77
Anorak
Woolf Barnato
 
Anorak's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: OAK
Oddometer: 33,234
Lithium polymer is called that because the electrolyte is a polymer not because the container is a polymer. The form of the container doesn't matter. If the cell casing is wood, is that a lithium wood?
__________________
'Gonna get me a six pack...push people off the highway!'

"they live off the carrion of our mutual distrust and bribe us with symbols that equate hatred with manhood."

"I mean at the end of the day, I was addicted to Starting Fluid for Christ's sake!"

"Yeah, that guy sure is terrible at touching moms"
Anorak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 10:09 AM   #78
_cy_ OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Lithium polymer is called that because the electrolyte is a polymer not because the container is a polymer. The form of the container doesn't matter. If the cell casing is wood, is that a lithium wood?
thanks for the clarification... posting from memory and we all know how infallible that can be
hey no one knows it all and glad for anyone to catch and inaccuracies.

edit: found it... on the Battery University site, which is one of the premier sources of battery information on the WWW.

"To make the modern Li-polymer battery conductive at room temperature, gelled electrolyte is added. All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator with moisture. The correct term is “Lithium-ion polymer” (Li-ion polymer or Li-polymer for short). Li-polymer can be built on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese. For this reason, Li-polymer is not considered a unique battery chemistry. Most Li-polymer packs for the consumer market are based on Li-cobalt.

With gelled electrolyte added, what then is the difference between a normal Li‑ion and Li‑ion polymer? As far as the user is concerned, the lithium polymer is essentially the same as the lithium-ion battery. Both use identical cathode and anode material and contain a similar amount of electrolyte. Although the characteristics and performance of the two systems are alike, the Li‑polymer is unique in that a micro porous electrolyte replaces the traditional porous separator. The gelled electrolyte becomes the catalyst that enhances the electrical conductivity. Li-polymer offers slightly higher specific energy and can be made thinner than conventional Li-ion, but the manufacturing cost increases by 10–30 percent. Despite the cost disadvantage, the market share of Li-polymer is growing.

Li-polymer cells also come in a flexible foil-type case (polymer laminate or pouch cell) that resembles a food package"

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...stance_or_hype

on to the next tests

----------------------------
10:15am Tulsa.. it's now 54f degree outside. Shorai LFX21 AH (pb eq) has recovered to 13.29v after sitting since earlier tests. going from 13.31v to 13.29 indicates very little capacity was used on the first tests.

flip the lights and heated grips on for 10 seconds... press the starter ... draws 105amps... motor spin over strong. choke is off, not ready for motor to start yet.... repeat for 4 more cycles.... 125amp draw.

starter is yet engaged again for another 4 sets ... now starter is drawing 145amps ... finally I turn the choke on... motor is spinning plenty strong. motor tries runs for a few seconds, but will not start. starter motor is energized for yet another 4-5 cycles. Battery is finally starting to slow down after these brutal series of starts.

time out for 2-3 minutes while battery recovers to 13.14v..... OOPSS... forgot to turn the fuel on.
press the button, starter cranks strong..... R80G/S roars to life.

what an impressive performance from this little battery!!!
before we uncork the champagne ... we've not see how Shorai performs when it's cold yet.

resting voltage 13.29v @ 54f degree, before continuing tests from earlier this morning.


13.08v and raising after 8+ cycles at 54f degrees, 145+amp draws



Shorai recovers to 13.14v after all the pounding... then cranks over motor strong again


_cy_ screwed with this post 03-24-2012 at 06:20 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 10:25 AM   #79
Danjal
Insert wit here.
 
Danjal's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Location,Location
Oddometer: 2,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
thanks much for sharing your link. LOTS of valuable information there. unfortunately all the information are for lead acid based batteries. which is understandable, since tests was done in 2009, Li-ion motorcycle batteries was all but unknown. feedback has grown since then. still quite new, lithium iron phosphate are just now starting hit the main stream.

LOTS of folks have lots of questions .. that hopefully we will answer in this thread.

originally these motorcycle battery tests were also going to cover AGM and Gel in detail. but it's obvious lithium iron phosphate is where hard data is missing. so that's why these tests have quickly morphed into covering li-ion technologies in detail.

notice laboratory grade instruments are used through out these tests. when voltage range of .5 volts covers about 80% of total amp hour capacity from battery. your electrical meters has to be lab grade or your results are suspect. temperature degrades li-ion cell's amp output. cold li-ion batteries have to be operated differently to successfully start your engine at say 15f degrees.

amp draw by starter becomes an important issue. li-ion batteries amp output could drop by 1/2 or more when operated at low temps. putting an internal load on a li-ion battery warms it up, bumping amp output performance back to full output.

this video by Ballistic Batteries is very important to watch for folks wanting to switch to li-ion motorcycle batteries. does an excellent job on how to properly warm up a li-ion battery during cold starts.

The motobatt is an agm for sure. I bought one years ago for my gs after i was tired of replacing the mix type lead acid batteries every year. Worked like a champ. Buddy is still using it in that bike. Anyway, back to the show.
Danjal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 12:21 PM   #80
_cy_ OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,799
bike was pushed back into garage for last several hours.... it's now 1:19pm
Shorai 18AH (pb eq) has recovered to 13.17v @ 56f degree... 98amp draw
engine fired right up...

if chart in post #44 is correct... this means about 60% of total capacity still remains. even after all the start cycles this battery was subjected to this morning.

from post #44 in this thread...

1. 14.4v fully charged
2. 14.4v to 13.4v. initial drop represents about 10% of capacity.
2. drop from 13.4v to 12.4v represents 80% of total capacity.
3. below 12.4 represents 10% of remaining capacity.
Don't drop below 12.86v (80% DOD) .. battery life (number of cycles) drops dramatically,

-----
going for a ride to see how battery recovers ...



X 2 for four cell data




_cy_ screwed with this post 02-17-2012 at 12:38 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 12:40 PM   #81
RC Pilot
Shut up and fly!
 
RC Pilot's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: The garage
Oddometer: 5,455
Just going off the Lipo batteries I use for my RC stuff, I would not use voltatage reading as an indication of remaining capacity. Lipo batteries, and I am guesing Life too, do not have a linear discharge curve. They tend to deliver a fairly steady voltage and then just drop off drastically.
__________________
Yea, whatever.
RC Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 12:55 PM   #82
Steelybeast
Studly Adventurer
 
Steelybeast's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Ellijay & Suwanee, Georgia
Oddometer: 551
I will just toss in my experience with the Shorai.

I had to replace the AGM battery in my '07 Bandit 1250 last summer after I left the key in the wrong postition and killed it. I decided to go with the Shorai, not so much as dropping a few pounds from the bike, but because it had a slower discharge rate when sitting.

The Bandit is not sitting where I can plug it into a battery tender and sometimes goes weeks without being ridden.

After sitting untouched since before Thanksgiving, I went outside and started it around the end of January, and started as good ever. It was around 45 degrees at that time too.

I actually let it run for about 30 seconds, turned off and started right back up with no problem. I know the cost was alot more than AGM, however being able to let it sit for a while and not needing a tender was worth it for me.
__________________
2007 Suzuki Bandit 1250S
2004 Honda ST1300
2000 Honda Nighthawk 750 (past)
2008 Kawasaki Versys (past)
Two-Up, Two-Wheels, Two-gether:Switzerland
Steelybeast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 05:31 PM   #83
_cy_ OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02TAC View Post
Just going off the Lipo batteries I use for my RC stuff, I would not use voltatage reading as an indication of remaining capacity. Lipo batteries, and I am guesing Life too, do not have a linear discharge curve. They tend to deliver a fairly steady voltage and then just drop off drastically.
just got back from a 31 mile bike ride on R80G/S ... in town Friday traffic is the pits...about got hit twice. took a reading when I got back, Shorai 18AH (pb eq) shows 13.23V or right in the middle of lithium iron phosphate's very flat discharge curve. made several stops and Shorai battery performed without a glitch. cranking over strong each and every time with a warm motor in 55 degree weather is child's play for this little Shorai 18AH (pb eq) battery.

note drop from about 13.4v to 12.4v represents about 80% of total capacity. measuring capacity via voltage requires an extremely accurate meter. again.. you don't want to drop voltage below 12.87V (80% DOD). this means 1/2 volt represents 80% of battery's useful capacity.

this is why I'm using a calibrated Fluke 87V for measurements along with temperature and amp draw.
some techniques from the RC transfer across, but not all. due to chemistry and specific motorcycle requirements. RC grade chargers with it's multi-cell balancing capabilities are very much needed. but we will get into that later. Driving a li-po pack HARD and chargers are an area where the RC crowd has the most expertise anywhere on the WWW.

R80G/S outside of Barnstall, OK... according to the sign, birthplace of Clark Gable

_cy_ screwed with this post 02-17-2012 at 05:41 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:25 PM   #84
Antigravity
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Oddometer: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
@ Antigravity ... thanks for dropping by ... was a pleasure speaking with you yesterday.

discharge tests using load testers are a good indicator of performance, but have limited value in the real world. what really counts is will this ultra light/powerful battery start my bike up when it's winter outside?
Ok here is my rant on batteries from my experiance as a manufacture...sorry its long, but I have my conclusions that I have come to.

Cy you are correct real world testing is the bottom line... but it a very broad spectrum to test the real world... there are difference in individual bikes that are pretty major also... We tested about 36 bikes from Ducati 1198s to 1985 Honda Nighthawks to 145 Cubic inch High Compression Kits on V-Twin customs... But back to my point is that some bike are wired better, some bikes have a better ratio in their starter reduction gearing, some ECUs need a higher voltage at start... So real world is very broad, but there is a bottom line and its just POWER... get more and be better off... of course you have to weigh this against cost and need.


Lately we have been doing some real world testing that is proving to be the best true test of battery performance that we have found. We have been testing a lot with the big Cubic Inch V-Twins from 103 to 145s (2345cc) motors and have found nothing does a better job of seeing what the batteries will do...These are absolutely the hardest motors to turn over by far... some have compression releases other don't, not to mention the variables on the build quality and size of the wire they use and if the motor is built tight or loose...if they use the 2.4 Kw starter or the 1.8 Kw starter can change the start ability dramatically...

Through the last year I have tested and re-tested so much that it has changed my outlook on batteries...
I no longer look at Amp Hours as that much of a factor at all... Power is absolutely the king and most important factor bar anything...Starting your bike is the number one thing that must happen especially if your in the middle of nowhere....Sufficient amp hours will follow the Power if you get the proper size battery... My argument for this is just from so much testing and experiance and understanding the principals ignition systems of vehicles...

You question above is "But will this thing start my battery in the Winter?" There is an important fact that I have not seen (or missed) being addressed...... and that is the Power of the battery... you mention a lot about Amp Hours but you do not mention the Cranking/Pulse discharge ability...Bottom line is power is what starts the bike....not the Amp hours, though you can argue they play a small role under certain circumstances. But POWER will push you through cold. Power will push you through a hard starting bike. Pwer will push you though the bike flooding. Power is the key and sufficient Amp hours will follow the power for most all applications....

For example if your Shorai LF 18 has 270 cranking amps, and at say 0 degrees it only has about 70% of its power... then your screwed for a good start. Now say you have a battery like the Antigravity YTX-16 which has 480 Cranking Amps and at 0 degrees it has only 70% of its power.... Well even 70 percent of the 480 cranking amps is going to have way more cranking power than 270 Cranking amps having 70% power......But say you are a world travelling Adventure guy (nuts) and you ask again "Will the battery start my bike in the cold!" And I would say to you....Well how about 600 Cranking amps in the YTX12 case format? And I will tell you that 600 cranking amps is like a car battery power in an OEM Yuasa Case size of the YTX12..... 600 cranking amps for a 1200cc bike motor will pretty much laugh at 0 degrees because it has over-head in massive power so that even if it has 60% of its power available it would be massively powerful....

So when you are talking about starting a bike and are wonder what you want for your around the world trip the bottom line is Higher power... Why? Higher power allows for less of a voltage drop on the start pulse which keeps the spark fatter... it keeps the voltage higher so the ECU can function properly and better .. it spins the motor faster which helps in getting past bad fueling when the bikes Fuel Injection system doesn't know how to handle the dense air in freezing tempratures...it helps if your carburated also with the faster spin ... higher power mean longer spins times without over heating the battery if your bike is flooded.... high power can power through a waterlogged bike until it starts...

So if your world traveling like you will be you should look at two thing in my honest opinion... Big freaking power.... or two smaller batteries providing a redundant system... If I was traveling I would use two smaller 12-cells packed in there and leave one disconnected as a back-up... I realize none of my info added to you incredible data gathering but when the rubber hits the dirt and road any rider who is really concerned about the ability to get the bike started in the cold should get the biggest battery in a size that will fit that they can....We can put 600 Cranking Amps into a Yuasa YTX12 Case format and NO company can do that or comes close (until they copy us). That is what Antigravity does. Direct OEM fit batteries with massive power or Ultra Compact models with massive power.

Regards,


scott-
__________________
http://antigravitybatteries.com

The smallest, lightest and most POWERFUL batteries
Antigravity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:45 PM   #85
Anorak
Woolf Barnato
 
Anorak's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: OAK
Oddometer: 33,234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
We can put 600 Cranking Amps into a Yuasa YTX12 Case format and NO company can do that or comes close (until they copy us). That is what Antigravity does. Direct OEM fit batteries with massive power or Ultra Compact models with massive power.

Regards,


scott-
I think Lightning can and with battery management circuitry. They also use A123.
__________________
'Gonna get me a six pack...push people off the highway!'

"they live off the carrion of our mutual distrust and bribe us with symbols that equate hatred with manhood."

"I mean at the end of the day, I was addicted to Starting Fluid for Christ's sake!"

"Yeah, that guy sure is terrible at touching moms"
Anorak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 10:28 AM   #86
_cy_ OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,799
setting up to do a bit of loading testing.... takes a bit of gear

Shorai 36 AH (pb eq) will do load testing first along with 20 AH (actual) battery. Shorai LFX21 AH (pb eq) is installed in R80G/S.

good for riding .. disappointed it's not colder, so I can give Shorai LFX21 (pb eq) a proper cold weather test. it's 11:26am 45f degree outside in Tulsa, OK


_cy_ screwed with this post 03-24-2012 at 06:20 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 12:08 PM   #87
Twoupfront
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Oddometer: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
[Loads of information and thought]
Thanks Scott. Definately food for thought.
Twoupfront is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 02:14 PM   #88
Antigravity
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Oddometer: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity
We can put 600 Cranking Amps into a Yuasa YTX12 Case format and NO company can do that or comes close (until they copy us). That is what Antigravity does. Direct OEM fit batteries with massive power or Ultra Compact models with massive power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
I think Lightning can and with battery management circuitry. They also use A123.
Hi Anorak, here is the Lightening Website...http://www.lightningnano.com/ All I see is they offer an 8-Cell batttery.... am I missing something? I said we offer the most powerful battery in a YTX12 case format at 600 Cranking Amps ...I don't see that they have anything but an 8-cell? And while it may have a BMS it only has a 1 year warranty... we offer a 3 year warranty an no BMS on our 8-Cells...So how would a BMS be any benefit or even a consideration if they cannot warranty for longer than a year? In theory a BMS should allow the batteries to last 5 years since it eliminates the most common cause of damage to Lithium... over and under discharge. There are some things also to consider with a BMS (we have tested them...and are still testing them)...

A BMS actually chokes the power of a "starter" battery IF they have it installed as a true BMS should be...Meaning the terminals of the battery should go into the BMS.. then to the battery cells... then it can do true full time balance charging as well as over-discharge and over-charge protection for the cells... Then on the other hand the full pulse discharge to start the bike must also come out of the cells and go through the BMS circuit board... and circuit boards are limited in durability when such high amps are constantly being put through them... As you can imaging you cannot put 250 amps in pulses through a 1/8th inch sliver of circuit, You need a minimum gauge wire to do that and we are pretty close to getting this done, but at this time we don't have the confidence in this specific application to go with them. As I said we warranty for 3 years... so when we are testing BMS we need to be confident to warranty it for our 3 year if not longer. So though you mention the Lightening has Battery Management it really means nothing with a one year warranty... A true and good battery management system should allow for extended warranties.




I'm talking about our 20-Cell in the YTX12 format...

__________________
http://antigravitybatteries.com

The smallest, lightest and most POWERFUL batteries
Antigravity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #89
_cy_ OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,799
as Joe Friday said... "Just the facts, ma'am"

with sooo many different vendors of Li-ion motorcycle batteries all making claims theirs is the best!
the lightest, most powerful, the most greenest... etc. etc..

who are we to believe?

due to physics and economics realities of producing a viable li-ion battery for a 12 volt internal combustion platform. hitting the sweet spot between production costs and performance gains is the li-ion motorcycle battery.

whereas production costs to mfg a li-ion battery with enough amp hour capacity to support even a small car would be very expensive. worst yet weight savings over my AGM 45lb 750CCA battery vs say a li-ion battery weight of 15lb... saving 30lbs on a vehicle that weight 5,000lb is just not that important.

vs a motorcycle 10lb can be very important
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 07:17 PM   #90
Anorak
Woolf Barnato
 
Anorak's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: OAK
Oddometer: 33,234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Hi Anorak, here is the Lightening Website...http://www.lightningnano.com/ All I see is they offer an 8-Cell batttery.... am I missing something? I said we offer the most powerful battery in a YTX12 case format at 600 Cranking Amps ...I don't see that they have anything but an 8-cell? And while it may have a BMS it only has a 1 year warranty... we offer a 3 year warranty an no BMS on our 8-Cells...So how would a BMS be any benefit or even a consideration if they cannot warranty for longer than a year? In theory a BMS should allow the batteries to last 5 years since it eliminates the most common cause of damage to Lithium... over and under discharge. There are some things also to consider with a BMS (we have tested them...and are still testing them)...

A BMS actually chokes the power of a "starter" battery IF they have it installed as a true BMS should be...Meaning the terminals of the battery should go into the BMS.. then to the battery cells... then it can do true full time balance charging as well as over-discharge and over-charge protection for the cells... Then on the other hand the full pulse discharge to start the bike must also come out of the cells and go through the BMS circuit board... and circuit boards are limited in durability when such high amps are constantly being put through them... As you can imaging you cannot put 250 amps in pulses through a 1/8th inch sliver of circuit, You need a minimum gauge wire to do that and we are pretty close to getting this done, but at this time we don't have the confidence in this specific application to go with them. As I said we warranty for 3 years... so when we are testing BMS we need to be confident to warranty it for our 3 year if not longer. So though you mention the Lightening has Battery Management it really means nothing with a one year warranty... A true and good battery management system should allow for extended warranties.
You make some salient points but what battery pack runs each cell in series through the BMS? Those are going to be some big transistors and heat sinks.
__________________
'Gonna get me a six pack...push people off the highway!'

"they live off the carrion of our mutual distrust and bribe us with symbols that equate hatred with manhood."

"I mean at the end of the day, I was addicted to Starting Fluid for Christ's sake!"

"Yeah, that guy sure is terrible at touching moms"
Anorak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 08:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014