Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

[Anorak]

The "nanophosphate" isn't a private label, it's A123's proprietary chemistry, what allows the repeated 30C discharge rate until at the discharge voltage without damage.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Anorak

The "nanophosphate" isn't a private label, it's A123's proprietary chemistry, what allows the repeated 30C discharge rate until at the discharge voltage without damage.

of course it is.. nanophosphate is A123's private label for their particular flavor of LiFePO4 chemistry

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just got back from a 30 mile bike ride with Shorai 36 AH (pb eq) battery installed. pretty uneventful .. all the starts were strong in 65f degree spring like weather.

[Tweaker]

Cy, I appreciate the the topic but looking at the 8 pages for the first time, it seems you are not achieving anything close to the accuracy you desire. None of it means much if you haven't compared the batteries all at the same temperatures. Then there are all the other variables, 20 minutes outside, 45 minutes outside, all night outside. I don't see you getting the accuracy you want unless you can regulate the temps.

Anyway, starter batteries are relatively cheap. Do I want to spend $100 on a lead acid or $220 on an equivalent LiFePO4? That a minor decision. What I really want to know is the best battery value for an electric powered bike, which has different requirements and is a much larger investment. Shorai does not return questions about this. I probably already know the answer but their form factor is attractive.

[herrhelmet]

Originally Posted by Tweaker

Cy, I appreciate the the topic but looking at the 8 pages for the first time, it seems you are not achieving anything close to the accuracy you desire. None of it means much if you haven't compared the batteries all at the same temperatures. Then there are all the other variables, 20 minutes outside, 45 minutes outside, all night outside. I don't see you getting the accuracy you want unless you can regulate the temps.

Anyway, starter batteries are relatively cheap. Do I want to spend $100 on a lead acid or $220 on an equivalent LiFePO4? That a minor decision. What I really want to know is the best battery value for an electric powered bike, which has different requirements and is a much larger investment. Shorai does not return questions about this. I probably already know the answer but their form factor is attractive.

Cy has approached a variety of Manufacturers and is still receiving test units.... so I'm sure he plans to do the type of "apples to apples" test, ...but just too early in his process. I spoke to him on the phone and he is the real deal. That's why he's getting the toys to play with. I questioned him at first too.

As for starting batteries, you're dead wrong. The idea is to save weight and increase reliability which the LiFePO4 achieves for the serious rider. It's a new application, so real world testing is important. Doesn't apply if you don't care about that. Electric bikes aren't the topic here. These are "race batteries"... hopefully the bucket of acid and lead you ride with will go away sooner than later.

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by _cy_

of course it is.. nanophosphate is A123's private label for their particular flavor of LiFePO4 chemistry

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just got back from a 30 mile bike ride with Shorai 36 AH (pb eq) battery installed. pretty uneventful .. all the starts were strong in 65f degree spring like weather.

Private label is when Safeway sells a house brand detergent that is made by a contractor. The "nano-phosphate" cathode is what makes the A123 superior to and different from the other LiFePo batteries. The A123 cell can take a lot of punishment. A123 says 100C pulse discharges and repeated complete discharge without damage. So, while it may be LiFePo, it is very different from the prismatic LiFePo batteries like Shorai etc.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Tweaker

Cy, I appreciate the the topic but looking at the 8 pages for the first time, it seems you are not achieving anything close to the accuracy you desire. None of it means much if you haven't compared the batteries all at the same temperatures. Then there are all the other variables, 20 minutes outside, 45 minutes outside, all night outside. I don't see you getting the accuracy you want unless you can regulate the temps.

gotta disagree, some very meaningful information has already come out of data measured. every step has been carefully documented to show how data is collected. proving Very ACCURATE measurements are being taken.

unfortunately don't have access to a motorcycle sized walkin freezer. besides what I'm really interested in is real life feedback. this means measuring resting voltage, temp, amp draw, recovery voltage, how fast engine is cranking over, etc. carefully tracking interaction with R80G/S charging system and effect of additional loads like heated gear, lights, etc.

temperature has a dramatic effect on LiFePO4. what I want to know is... will this battery start my bike up when it's say 15f degree outside?

Neduro successfully used a LifePO4 battery on his Dakar bike. Can LiFePO4 be used successfully on an adventure bike?

resting voltage reveals charge state, are we trying to start this bike with an almost dead battery? did that short ride with heated gear prevent battery from being charged back up. is your charging system not charging your LiFePO4 battery full even after a multi-hour ride with only lights on? Are you charging your battery with too many amps? what's the correct AH size battery for my bike?

these are but some of the questions that's come out of so far...

don't get me wrong these motorcycle LiFePO4 tests would not be complete without load tests. if you peek into capabilities of Progressive RC, Cellpro Powerlab 8 ... been burning a few brain cycles figuring out FMA's Charge Control Software to configure the PL8.

Maximum regenerative discharge: 1344W / 40A ... this means I'll be able to track discharge at up to 40 amps. then generate resulting hard data in graph format.

here's a screen shot of FMA Charge Control Software
http://www.revolectrix.com/CCS_Tour.htm

[Anorak]

I bet the battery would fit in the freezer.

[Lonestar2112]

Cy, keep up the good work. Your data is helping us all understand the properties of these "new" batteries. All of us old farts that grew up with Lead acid undersatand them pretty well. The new Li combinations not so much.

Please keep up with how the bike performs with the new voltage regulator. Before this thread ends hopefully somebody with a CANBUS with drop in a new regulator and see how it performs with the higher voltage.

Keep it up.

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by Lonestar2112

Cy, keep up the good work. Your data is helping us all understand the properties of these "new" batteries. All of us old farts that grew up with Lead acid undersatand them pretty well. The new Li combinations not so much.

Please keep up with how the bike performs with the new voltage regulator. Before this thread ends hopefully somebody with a CANBUS with drop in a new regulator and see how it performs with the higher voltage.

Keep it up.

Modern alternators charge at around 14.4 volts which works fine with LiFePo. Also, good luck finding an adjustable regulator for one.

So far as the airhead charging system, it's already marginal. Increasing the output with an adjustable regulator makes more head which will shorten the life of the marginal alternator rotor and rectifier.

[Tweaker]

Originally Posted by Anorak

I bet the battery would fit in the freezer.

Good idea, but the problem, something I was ineloquently alluding to, is that there are plenty of other variables. The one most on my mind now, since I have been having problems starting an oiled electric compressor when cold using a generator, is the state of the engine. A truly cold engine is much harder to crank, but the tests so far have all been inconsistent. Sometimes the bike is outside all night, sometimes some minutes, another day the mixture was changed and always at different temps. My compressor for example has completely different starting characteristics after about 15 minutes in the sun.
There are some other things but as one of the battery guys already diplomatically said, every bike and every condition is different and what with all the conditions that these tests have been run, there is no way to compare the batteries side-by-side and that has already been ruled out. You might as well wire them all up parallel and see how many miles the starter will take you. If you're going to be anal, do it right.

And it needs to be pointed out, that the XZDF333 48f Shorai battery that starts Cy's 30 year old GS using 10-40wt at 15.575f after running a vest for 38 minutes may or may not start my Yamaha 660 at 25f for example. Readers need to know this if they were to rely on these tests for their own adventure.

That is all.

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by Tweaker

Good idea, but the problem, something I was ineloquently alluding to, is that there are plenty of other variables. The one most on my mind now, since I have been having problems starting an oiled electric compressor when cold using a generator, is the state of the engine. A truly cold engine is much harder to crank, but the tests so far have all been inconsistent. Sometimes the bike is outside all night, sometimes some minutes, another day the mixture was changed and always at different temps. My compressor for example has completely different starting characteristics after about 15 minutes in the sun.
There are some other things but as one of the battery guys already diplomatically said, every bike and every condition is different and what with all the conditions that these tests have been run, there is no way to compare the batteries side-by-side and that has already been ruled out. You might as well wire them all up parallel and see how many miles the starter will take you. If you're going to be anal, do it right.

And it needs to be pointed out, that the XZDF333 48f Shorai battery that starts Cy's 30 year old GS using 10-40wt at 15.575f after running a vest for 38 minutes may or may not start my Yamaha 660 at 25f for example. Readers need to know this if they were to rely on these tests for their own adventure.

That is all.

I'm not sure what to make of the tests either. There is accurate and expensive equipment used but to what end?

If you're looking for LiFePo batteries for an electric motorcycle, check out this company, http://www.alliancerenewableenergy.com/. He imports Thundersky prismatic cells. Oddly, all the Chinese prismatic cells use the same case style differing only in color.

Here's a Yamaha R1 electric conversion using Thundersky.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Anorak

I bet the battery would fit in the freezer.

it sure would... but what about rest of engine? an engine say 65f degree takes about 70 amps or so to start. that same engine at 15f takes 185amp+. then as it's been pointed out several times. LiFePO4 requires learning a special procedure for cold weather starts.

folks all this is brand new territory ... my objectives are to track data accurately. then drill into areas of concern. like cold weather starts. when I started this my objective was to test LiFePO4 against AGM, Gel and wet PB. but it became apparent very quickly ... where the attention needed to be was on the li-ion side.

so that's what I've been doing... drilling in LiFePO4's weakness and advantages. please note my needs to find out if li-ion battery is ready for an adventure bike are probably very different than someone wanting to fit an ultra light weight battery in a race bike. folks routinely spend $$$ to shave off a few ozs. here's a way to shave of several pounds.

my methodology is simple ... carefully and accurately track all the metrics that matter. then as problems shows itself. use the data to determine why/if problems are happening. if need be drill in to find a solution.

if I can use LiFePO4 battery in an adventure bike successfully. then it's pretty safe to say li-ion is ready for prime time.

this picture shows the HUGE weight/size difference between a 14lb BMW Gel battery vs a SCYL 2.3AH with 4x A123 cells at 12oz. ..... now I would not consider using a 2.3AH battery in an adventure bike. but saving 13lb+ in a race bike is substantial!!

come to think of it... this little powerhouse SYCL battery would make an excellent backup battery for an adventure bike without a kickstarter.



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Originally Posted by Anorak

Modern alternators charge at around 14.4 volts which works fine with LiFePo. Also, good luck finding an adjustable regulator for one.

So far as the airhead charging system, it's already marginal. Increasing the output with an adjustable regulator makes more head which will shorten the life of the marginal alternator rotor and rectifier.

one would think that's the case... but real life says otherwise. read back a few posts for specific details on resting voltage after a 106 mile bike ride with only light on. then heated gear for last 20 minutes.

airheads charge at 13.8v to 14.2v ... with all different watts to a max of 280watts for stock alternators. mine has been upgraded to Motorrad Elektrik 400watt Omega.

Bosch mechanical voltage regulators can be adjusted for higher volt output. Since Motorrad Elektrik had a high output 14.5v regulator on the shelf. went that route instead of adjusting a mechanical one. adjusting voltage regulators is old hat for airheads.

since switching to higher voltage regulator.... output has gone up to 22.5amp to battery at 3k rpm...with lights and heated grip on (about 14amp load with overhead). vs 19.5 amp before upgrade to higher regulator. note resting voltage was 13.21 or about 70% charged condition. that's why battery was taking such high amps from alternator. in this charging scenario AH size of battery does matter. Shorai is rated at 3C, A123 cells are rated at 4C.

as it's been pointed out... modern bikes typically are equipped with higher output alternators. say 450 watts at 14.4v. those bikes probably will not have the same charging issues as an old airhead.

one thing is for sure... odds of successfully using a LiFePO4 battery in a motorcycle goes way up... if one learns proper charging and cold starting procedures.

[Anorak]

Do you have the numbers for a lead acid battery tested in the same conditions? A control. I finally realized what is missing from this.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Anorak

Do you have the numbers for a lead acid battery tested in the same conditions? A control. I finally realized what is missing from this.

thanks for noticing that very important piece of info is missing. in fact thanks for catching typo/inaccuracies in these posts. very much appreciated.

no it's not been forgotten, just that since these tests started. there has been very few cold days below 40f degrees. yes the control battery is the 14lb 19AH BMW factory Gel already shown several times. Yes baseline measurements will be taken. but priority is taking measurements with LiFePO4 first.

forecast for the next week is warm spring like weather.... been riding G/S the last few days with Shorai 36 AH (pb eq) installed. doubling starting amps has noticeably improved cranking speeds at 40f degree vs Shorai LFX21 AH (pb eq). When engine is at operating temps not much difference in cranking speeds.

can't wait to try out Shorai 36 AH (pb eq) with 540 starting amp in cold conditions.

Shorai 36 AH, 60f , 13.62v resting .. 118amp draw ... engine spins over strong


after 4 cranking cycles 5 seconds 110-120 amps @ 60f degree ... 13.26v recovery volts after 3-4 minutes and raising.


1:47pm about 3 hours later .. resting voltage recovers to 13.32v or slightly over 90% charge

[_cy_]

prepping SYCL 2.3AH battery for service

13.27 resting voltage as received... this means battery is 80% charged as shipped. Li-ion batteries store better when not fully charged.


here SYCL 2.3 AH pack is being precision charged at 2C rate by Progressive RC, Cellpro Powerlab 8