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Old 01-29-2012, 01:14 PM   #196
Clancy
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Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn View Post
I'm in the process of changing the rear suspension unit on the K outfit because the one current one is way too soft.

I've received some good advice already from a number of inmates, but as I finalise my change I'd like to clarify what spring strengths are out there on similar bike rear end set ups, i.e. BMW single shock, or even other single shock arrangements on other bikes.

Have found some information already around ADV, much of it contained within threads that primarily deal with other issues, but it seemed a good idea to try and gather this in one location.

Anything you have appreciated in any units, e.g. lbs/inches, or the metric versions.
See if you can contact 3legs. When I built mine, he gave me the part number of a Hagon unit that I fitted and it was perfect. Because my memory has just about disappeared, and I didn't write it down anywhere I haven't got it, but I'm sure Alex will have it somewhere.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:45 AM   #197
Sidecarjohn
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Thanks for the quick reply Clancy.
Parts numbers can be great, if it's possible to determine the spring rate. However, that's not always feasible with some suppliers' codes. I understand that it's possible to interpret spring rates from some spring codes, but not always from the complete suspension unit. My interest is in spring rates at this stage.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:56 AM   #198
Clancy
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Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn View Post
Thanks for the quick reply Clancy.
Parts numbers can be great, if it's possible to determine the spring rate. However, that's not always feasible with some suppliers' codes. I understand that it's possible to interpret spring rates from some spring codes, but not always from the complete suspension unit. My interest is in spring rates at this stage.

Should be easy mate. Get the assembly part number off 3legs, Then give Daryl a ring at Hagons in Euroa and he'll tell you the spring rate for that unit.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:43 AM   #199
Pugsley/Hobbfather
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Width unimportant?

So, I'm guessing width has very little to do with overall geometry? I actually think it would be as crucial as lead or leading links, or am I missing something?

Signed, Not wanting to crash in VT...
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:01 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn View Post
Thanks for the quick reply Clancy.
Parts numbers can be great, if it's possible to determine the spring rate. However, that's not always feasible with some suppliers' codes. I understand that it's possible to interpret spring rates from some spring codes, but not always from the complete suspension unit. My interest is in spring rates at this stage.
As Hagons are english, why not give them a phone call?They are based in Chigwell,Essex.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:29 AM   #201
Agent Wayward
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I have a selection of test springs with known weights. When I say selection, I mean 3.

If I'm building an outfit that is different to others I have done, I'll pick the one I think is right and try it.

If it's too soft, harder spring.

If it's too hard, guess what?

Springs are cheap, if you build outfits or mess about with them a lot, it's a worthy investment and you can guage the exact spring that you want from the 3, rather tha ending up with something that is what someone else used, but isn't really quite what suits you.

As the man said, Hagons are fantastically helpful and knowledgeable people, give them a call.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:35 AM   #202
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Re width, if it is to narrow the rig will be easier to tip over, the wider you go the more stable it will be.

Re Springs. Approach the factory that makes the springs for Alf Hagon, I cannot remember the name, but they are in Indian Queens in Cornwall, just off the A30. I will make a couple of phone calls and see if I can find the firms name.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:41 AM   #203
Billtr96sn
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European springs and pressings, they have a downloadable catalogue and here is the link

http://www.europeansprings.com/

Phone 02086 631 800 (+44 2086 631 800 for the foreigners)

That is the London number

Here is the Cornish number 01726 861 444

Billtr96sn screwed with this post 02-03-2012 at 11:49 AM Reason: to add another phone number
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:05 PM   #204
Pugsley/Hobbfather
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width

Track width seems to be not so much an issue of wb/track/lead percentages, more like whatever works on the trails you'll be riding, tracks to follow, etc?

This should be easier than trying to fit to an ideal, since I can now design to what payloads and roads work for me!
Thanks!
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Old 02-04-2012, 05:43 AM   #205
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Thanks for contributions so far.

Investigations and advice from elsewhere indicates it's not simply down to spring rates, but that the damping ability of a coil over unit has to be considered. Springs overwhelming a unit's ability to correctly damp the spring's reaction has to be borne in mind. The damper has its limits, which I appreciate. Other factors are the varied modes of use imposed on our outfit - passenger in the sidecar (with and without luggage), sidecar full of camping gear and pillion passenger, even the latter set up plus towing a teardrop camping trailer. Compromise isn't the word.

I appreciate that if an outfit follows something of a norm, e.g. Beemer GS and single seat sports chair, there's likely to be a unit specification that can come off the shelf. Difficulties arise when the outfit is a bit different and doesn't follow a norm, which is the case for me. Still, part of the fun really.

The desire is not to waste limited finances on yet another suck it and see approach. I have a shed full of parts of all descriptions that didn't quite perform and have had to be replaced quite soon after. Possibly goes with the sidecar game. Important thing is not to tell the missus of such spending miscalculations for fear of reprisals.

I hope to be getting closer making a decision, having spent some time doing the maths, browsed the internet, and taken advice. However, more advice and thoughts still welcome because it might help others.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:14 AM   #206
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn View Post
Thanks for contributions so far.

Investigations and advice from elsewhere indicates it's not simply down to spring rates, but that the damping ability of a coil over unit has to be considered. Springs overwhelming a unit's ability to correctly damp the spring's reaction has to be borne in mind. The damper has its limits, which I appreciate. Other factors are the varied modes of use imposed on our outfit - passenger in the sidecar (with and without luggage), sidecar full of camping gear and pillion passenger, even the latter set up plus towing a teardrop camping trailer. Compromise isn't the word.

I appreciate that if an outfit follows something of a norm, e.g. Beemer GS and single seat sports chair, there's likely to be a unit specification that can come off the shelf. Difficulties arise when the outfit is a bit different and doesn't follow a norm, which is the case for me. Still, part of the fun really.

The desire is not to waste limited finances on yet another suck it and see approach. I have a shed full of parts of all descriptions that didn't quite perform and have had to be replaced quite soon after. Possibly goes with the sidecar game. Important thing is not to tell the missus of such spending miscalculations for fear of reprisals.

I hope to be getting closer making a decision, having spent some time doing the maths, browsed the internet, and taken advice. However, more advice and thoughts still welcome because it might help others.
I put an adjustable torsion bar rear suspension on my old K100 outfit., Not talking antiswaybar here. Worked good.

Even with the shock you have ,if it isn't totally trashed; the addition of an antiswaybar would make a lot of diference.
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Old 02-04-2012, 02:26 PM   #207
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Claude,
Had serious thoughts about a sway bar, but puzzled with how to attach on a single side swingarm as on our K. Problem being that the sidecar is on the left of the bike.
Makes me wonder if any of our Aussie boys have gone that route seeing as they have their sidecars mounted same as the UK ?
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:24 AM   #208
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn View Post
Claude,
Had serious thoughts about a sway bar, but puzzled with how to attach on a single side swingarm as on our K. Problem being that the sidecar is on the left of the bike.
Makes me wonder if any of our Aussie boys have gone that route seeing as they have their sidecars mounted same as the UK ?
You can run the bar all the way across and attache to the 'non sidecar side' of the outfit..
As far as the discussion on spring rates go there are so many variables with a sidecar outfit it is virtually impossibe to make any blanket statements. Effective dynamic spring / shock combinations are what counts. What works on one outfot may not be ideal for another.

Agent Wayward alluded to trial and error as a means to begin and possibly improve things.( If I'm building an outfit that is different to others I have done, I'll pick the one I think is right and try it. If it's too soft, harder spring. If it's too hard, guess what? )

Not far off base me thinks.

Shock angles come into play as does where the shock is mounted on the swingarm in relation to the swingarm pivot point and the sidecar axle itself. Weight of the outfit, track width, swaybar or not, wheel lead, what the suspension is on the bike, shaft or chain drive, blah balh could all be factors that affect things. Yes, some enginner types may come up
with the 'ideal shock.spring combination' but even at that there is always room for improvement.

Shock valving also is a factor of course.

We typically run a 170/ 240 spring rate on the dual sport type outfits with a swaybar. On heavier sidecars we go to a heavier spring. Shocks moutned behind the sidecar axle will get more action that those in front of the axle.Shocks laid down more will seem softer. Shock angles can do weird things to how a shocks spring rate increases during bump.

Sidecar suspesnions are notorious to have very little sag set into them. Check that out sometime.

Multi track vehicles and even moreso non symetrical sidecar outfits are challenged by things, suspension wise, that a solo bike isn't dealing with. Dynamic weigth transfers in left and right turns, The center of mass working through a ground level roll center, High center of gravity, and so on.

The spring rates of the swaybars will vary depending upon the length of the bar. The dynamic 'working' spring rate of the swaybar will vary depending upon the arm lengths, the angle of the arms etc..Short arms may work well with a soft bar whereas longer arms may cry for a stiffer bar to acheive the same overall results.

Lots of stuff to think about. The voices in one's head can get quite loud sometimes lol. Sorry for rambling
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:14 AM   #209
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Claude,

You don't ramble !

Your comments about the sway bar approach has had me going over the various sway bar information contained on ADV. Allied to past discussions with others, I can see this is a way to go, so the tape measure is back out, plus a look at some possible auto stuff.

Clearly, still require an uprated suspension unit for the bike's rear end and this is now being worked out.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:04 AM   #210
dengwynn
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I made 2 satisfactory sidecars before but finally I made one which refused to work because it was too light [ about 20 lbs] no missprint, it was that light. I made an articulated sidecar of it and was amazed....it was so much better. The motorcycle still functions as a motorcycle rather than being like a very fast tiller steered riding lawnmower. If you are going to the trouble of making a rig, consider a leaner, you will never go back.
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