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Old 03-31-2012, 11:11 PM   #121
JoelWisman OP
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I have no hard data on other branded batteries, yet, but will soon, and as with Shorai, will let the pieces fall where they may.


This cracked me up from Ballistics FAQ

"Why are Ballistic Performance Components batteries different from other lithium based batteries?
The Ballistic Performance Components EVO2 battery uses custom made cells, cases, and connectors that are [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]made specifically for the purpose of starting powersports vehicles[/COLOR]. This is not a collection of generic commercially available parts wrapped in shrink wrap. This is a purpose built product [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]designed, engineered, and assembled in the USA by an American company[/COLOR] with over 20 years of professional motorcycle racing and manufacturing experience. We have made significant investments in materials, production capacity, and engineering that allow us to sell a lighter, smaller, more powerful battery at a better price and at the same time offering an exceptional 3 year warranty."

If this is not a direct jab at Shorai, I don't know what is. Note also, ACTUAL amp hour to ACTUAL amp hour, Ballistic batteries are cheaper then Shorai.


Also from Ballistic FAQ:

"How do you compare lithium amp/hour and cold cranking amp ratings to traditional lead acid ratings?
Ballistic Performance Components batteries are designed to be starter batteries. Lithium Ferrous Phosphate technology works really well as a starter battery because it is able to deliver a large amount of energy in a short period of time and then recover. This is why they can be made so much smaller and lighter than the lead-acid equivalent.

Lead-acid battery manufacturers have been using Amp-Hour (Ahr) ratings for years to indicate the cranking ability of their batteries. The Amp-Hour rating is a measure of how long a battery can deliver a specific current over the course of 60 minutes at a low discharge rate to half of nominal voltage. This rating has little to do with how a battery will actually start a vehicle. Because the rating itself is based on a complete discharge, under actual conditions the lead acid battery will deliver much less than the amp-hour rating. As a lead-acid battery discharges it begins to sulfate and its internal resistance increases. Also, discharging any battery to a complete discharge will damage it permanently.

A Ballistic Performance Components EVO2 battery will operate completely different. EVO2 batteries have significantly less internal resistance so they are able to discharge more of their capacity in a burst and still remain usable. Because the usable capacity is much greater than an equivalent lead-acid, a 6.9Ahr 12 Cell EVO2 is on par with a 20AHr lead acid battery in actual performance as a starter battery. To illustrate this, we use the rating of Pb-eq A/Hr or lead (Pb) equivalent (eq) Amp Hour (A/Hr). The lead acid equivalent amp/hour rating is a simple way to compare the starting capacity of a LiFePO4 battery with the starting capacity of a lead-acid battery.

Cold cranking amp (CCA) ratings for lead-acid batteries are a bit deceiving as well. CCA specs are based on amps delivered at zero degrees Fahrenheit at half nominal voltage (14.4V). This isn’t a very useful rating as 7.2volts will not start a vehicle. What really starts a vehicle is current multiplied by available voltage (Watts). Once again, because a EVO2 has so much less internal resistance it is able to deliver more voltage for a given amp draw, and thus more usable starting power.

All batteries start to lose performance below 32ºF (0ºC), and LiFePO4 batteries tend to fall off more dramatically. When the temperature of the EVO2 goes below 32ºF (0ºC) internal resistance starts to build in the battery and the amount of available amperage goes down as well. This should lower the Cold Cranking Amp rating, correct?

No. LiFePO4 batteries have the ability to build their own internal heat energy when a draw is put on the battery. This means that although if may be 0ºF (-18ºC) outside, the battery has the ability to raise its internal temperature to 58ºF (14ºC) in seconds with a 100amp draw. As the temperature rises inside the battery, internal resistance lowers and the battery performs just like it does when it is 60ºF (15ºC) outside. This means that the amount of available amperage does not change based on temperature."
I need to get my hands on one of these batteries, but this seems closer to inaccurate rather then the down right dirty lies on Shorais FAQ. True amp hour is at least listed and explanations are at least plausible.

Read for yourself Ballistic FAQ



Heres an excerpt from AntiGravities FAQ:
"As an example of the power to size ratio of the Antigravity Battery Power Cell vs Prismatic Cell…. A Prismatic Lifepo 18 amp hour (PbEq) battery puts out 220 Cold Cranking Amps… Our 16-cell is a 16 amp hour (PbEq) yet puts out an incredible 480 Cold Cranking Amps DOUBLE the power of the Prismatic, yet amazingly is smaller than the Prismatic….This battery can turn over the Big V-Twins like 135 cubic inch high compression motors, where the larger Prismatic will fail to get past the compression stroke. We always go for POWER first and foremost and we trump all other batteries in this area."

The CCA ratings, we will see. Honestly, i'll give any company a pass if their battery will create usable voltage at the CCA current level for at least 10 seconds which Shorai will not, but at least here we see a somewhat reasonable Amp Hour PBEQ

Shorai is trying to say that a 6 amp hour LiFePO4 prismatic is equivalent to 18 amp hour lead/acid
Ballistic is trying to say 6.9 amp hour cylindrical LiFePO4 is equivalent to 20 amp hour lead/acid
Antigravity is only saying that a 10.2 amp hour cylindrical LiFePO4 is equivalent to 15 amp hour lead/acid

This approaches believable. Lead/acid Amp Hour is usually specified at a 10 hour rate. If you draw more then 1/10th of the batteries capacity per hour, the chemistry in a lead acid battery can't keep up and the voltage will fall on its nose before you get the full amp hour rating out. The capacity isn't actually lost, that is, if you stop drawing current for a few hours, the chemistry will catch up and you will get back the remainder, but it certainly becomes inaccessible for a while.

This is SUPPOSED to be less of the case with LiFePO4 chemistry, so I will give Antigravity a pass because under some foreseeable conditions, a 10.2 AH LiFePO4 really will have as much usable capacity as a quality 15 AH lead/acid.

But 18 AH from a 6 AH battery or 20 AH from a 6.9 AH battery, thats pure hyperbole Shorai and Ballistic.

Never the less, most of the rest of Ballistics FAQ is more reasonable and informative so I will approach their battery with an open mind.

I would truly LIKE to like one of these brands because I want more CCA AND AH then will fit in my Capos battery tray with lead/acid chemistry.

Without further ado, here is the raw video. Well not totally raw, I did ket out the drying paint sections and ad nifty labels and even fades But the figures are the straight juice, you can watch as I log them.




Once I have a Ballistic and AntiGravity battery test, I will run it through exactly the same tests and if it passes, proceed to cold weather tests.

I don't think I will post the Shorai melt down video as some people will needlessly use it against the chemistry as a whole. In any case, it was not a "thermal event" as the industry calls it. No flames and not that much heat, but OMG take it from me, the smoke cloud was EPIC!

It dumped half of it's smoke in my house as I evacuated the dogs and turtle and STILL once I carried it out side made a big enough white header to get a passing firetruck to turn down my residential street to see what was up.

I'm not exaggerating. That Shorai was the smoke bomb from hell!

As always, if anyone has questions, suggestions, or thinks I am being unfair, speak up.
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Old 03-31-2012, 11:24 PM   #122
JoelWisman OP
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Originally Posted by Mike.C View Post
OMG Enough, Enough. Now I am really scared. The Shorias are land fill as of next weekend (well actually in the recycle bin at the local battery supplier).

Looks like I'll be stumping up the cash for a couple of Odysees. Oztralia is a big place full of nothing and bike recovery from anywhere beyond the black stump is very expensive.

I still am going to upgrade the R/R though.
Oh good lord, send them to me not the recycle bin!

I will run them, just in my scooter, not an adventure bike

Shorais FAQ makes my blood boil and I am not impressed with their batteries being susceptible to water damage.

Other then that, I think they are lying by a factor of at least 2 on CCA and AH, so an LFX 27 or 36 will probably equal or best the performance of the stock Deka F8 battery or an Odyssey PC535.

The LFX 18 and 21 are still useful, just in smaller bikes or bikes only used in fair weather, well tuned up, and not beyond range of a cell phone tower.
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:10 AM   #123
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Joel, nice work ... keep it up. but gotta say that last series of tests has got me scratching my head. putting a 200 amp load at 72 degrees has next to nothing to do with putting out 200 amps at say 15f degrees. Peukert's law says as amp load goes up. efficiency is directly related to internal resistance of battery. highly unlikely those lead acid batteries will sustain 200 amps at say 15f degrees for 30 seconds. certainly LiFePO4 batteries will not either.

don't know what you are trying to prove putting a 200 amp load on battery for 20-30 seconds. if you crank a starter while it's drawing 200 amps for 30 seconds. something going to melt.

what counts is real world testing! duplicating what the battery will be subjected to under real life conditions. doubtful if a starter will be cranked say more than 5-6 seconds. for a modern bike in good tune ... more like 1-2 seconds even when cold. when something is wrong ...all bets are off on duration needed to start. still would not crank any starter more than 5-6 seconds, then allow to cool for at least 30-60 seconds between cranks.

Colebatch just successfully did a trip to Andes mountains with Shorai batteries under very cold conditions. proper starting procedures is a must under those conditions. for Adventure bikes a LFX 36 (currently in my R80G/S) with close to 500 cranking amps (12 amp hour actual) at minimum is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colebatch
We just used Shorai batteries on a world record altitude expedition into the Andes. Every morning the temps were -10 c or so. We never had a problem starting the bikes (even at 6200 metres), but then we knew the starting procedure. You need to create some electrical drain on the battery to warm it up.

Put it this way, warming up a shorai battery is as simple as cranking it once or twice or running the headlight for 30 seconds. Warming up a lead acid battery is a case of sleeping with it in your sleeping bag, or sticking it in a hot tub of water for half an hour.




one major benefit my LiFePO4 tests enjoy is starting out with a brand new battery. that part I insisted on. using someone's used battery that no telling what's been done to it could result in results that are valid or bogus. same for using the proper charger. a dedicated LiFePO4 charger is necessary to bring battery to full charge and balance the battery.

currently there is NO way to balance battery except to take out battery and charge on dedicated charger with balancing capacities. I've got a circuit design in mind that I'd like to get fabricated that hopefully will solve balancing issues while on the bike.

charging LiFePO4 battery packs is old hat for RC folks and electric vehicles folks. but catch is they all are using chargers with balancing circuitry. running LiFePO4 batteries bare with NO battery management systems is brand new. BMS large enough to support 200+ amps would be cost prohibitive and too large to carry on a motorcycle.

LiFePO4 mfg have not advertised it... but currently the only way to balance your LiFePO4 battery is with a dedicated charger with balance features. which can be sourced for under $40 if one knows what to look for. most folks don't need a Powerlab 8 with capacity to charge/discharge at 1350 watts. for most LiFePO4 batteries ... 2-3 amp charger is ample.

my results so far indicated ... LiFePO4 batteries put out more than ample current to start my R80G/S which admittedly only draws about 125 amps during warm weather. during cold conditions that goes up to 200+ amps.

yes.. I do agree with your sentiments about actual vs PBEQ ratings. what counts is actual amp hours delivered! period!

_cy_ screwed with this post 04-01-2012 at 12:38 AM
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Old 04-01-2012, 01:00 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Oh good lord, send them to me not the recycle bin!
OK but the freight might make them cost more than a couple of new ones

Anyway, all jokes asside I am embarking on an unsupported 7500km 14 day off road rally in August and the route goes smack bang through the some of the colder parts of the country as well as the central deserts, so to say the least I am keen not to have a Shorai fail on me in the middle of nowhere. Odysees it is, unless maybe Anti Gravity comes up trumps.

Your investigation has been both interesting and timely - thanks heaps!
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Old 04-01-2012, 01:46 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
Joel, nice work ... keep it up. but gotta say that last series of tests has got me scratching my head. putting a 200 amp load at 72 degrees has next to nothing to do with putting out 200 amps at say 15f degrees. Peukert's law says as amp load goes up. efficiency is directly related to internal resistance of battery. highly unlikely those lead acid batteries will sustain 200 amps at say 15f degrees for 30 seconds. certainly LiFePO4 batteries will not either.

don't know what you are trying to prove putting a 200 amp load on battery for 20-30 seconds. if you crank a starter while it's drawing 200 amps for 30 seconds. something going to melt.

what counts is real world testing! duplicating what the battery will be subjected to under real life conditions. doubtful if a starter will be cranked say more than 5-6 seconds. for a modern bike in good tune ... more like 1-2 seconds even when cold. when something is wrong ...all bets are off on duration needed to start. still would not crank any starter more than 5-6 seconds, then allow to cool for at least 30-60 seconds between cranks.
I fully agree about the "cold" part, but when a battery fails a warm test, theres little point in troubling myself and friend who operates a cold storage facility to do a cold test because amongst other reasons, it is cold there :)

As for 30 seconds.... 1) because that is what a cranking test is. For almost 100 years SLI batteries have been tested with 30 second tests. HCA, CA, and CCA are all 30 second tests under conditions laid out by BCI and ASE, so a 30 second test is a way to get comparable values that all manufactures besides some LiFePO4 manufactures are going by.

Shorai itself states in it's FAQ "LFX are CCA rated to deliver 9V for a 5-second crank at the CCA rated current. (in fact, our average voltage delivered will be even higher during a 30-second crank.

Well, just put the lie to that with 3 used and one new battery Shorai battery

2) Trust me, being the last shop foreman at Gateway BMW, the service manager at numerous Volvo dealerships before that...... Yeah, we really do crank for 30 seconds in a row and fairly frequently.

I absolutely agree that you don't want to crank that long repeatedly without long cool downs, but the starter motor has substantial "thermal mass" and will tolerate it from cold. In fact, coming up in the next video I crank 3 different bikes for 30 consecutive seconds repeatedly after cool down to room temperature. the sessions with lead/acid batteries are done, but am waiting for an LiFePO4 battery that can do that before posting. I can pop one of the starters out and show you the brushes if you like, they tolerate it, especially PMGR starters which the R80GS (awesome bike!) is not, so I would tend to limit crank sessions with that bike to 20 seconds or so.

This test has no value for a properly running bikes, but adventure riding often includes times when not everything is hunky-dory.

The real world application for 30 second cranking, is when a bike won't start and you need to crank for a long duration while waiting for readings to stabilize and tests to complete to diagnose the problem. Exactly the same reason we frequently do this in a shop.

Also when a bike is running poorly and won't start, often just cranking it a long duration while modulating throttle will allow you to find the sweet spot where it finally fires, and also heat the combustion chamber through friction enough to help the bike start on that front as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
Colebatch just successfully did a trip to Andes mountains with Shorai batteries under very cold conditions. proper starting procedures is a must under those conditions. for Adventure bikes a LFX 36 (currently in my R80G/S) with close to 500 cranking amps (12 amp hour actual) at minimum is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colebatch
We just used Shorai batteries on a world record altitude expedition into the Andes. Every morning the temps were -10 c or so. We never had a problem starting the bikes (even at 6200 metres), but then we knew the starting procedure. You need to create some electrical drain on the battery to warm it up.

Put it this way, warming up a shorai battery is as simple as cranking it once or twice or running the headlight for 30 seconds. Warming up a lead acid battery is a case of sleeping with it in your sleeping bag, or sticking it in a hot tub of water for half an hour.

This was done by a couple of guys in a Ugo (however you spell it) as well lol. No, but seriously, -10c isn't very cold. A Husaberg FE 570s isn't very demanding to start. And altitude has no particular affect on starting a fuel injected bike or well adjusted carbed bike except owing to the thinness of the air, cranking current demand will be lighter.

Its a cool achievement and I would have loved to have been along for the ride, but not demanding on a battery.

I had to start my bike at -35c a few times last year and know adventurers that rode in colder weather.

As for your LFX36, nice battery! But at $350 list, it is not the battery adventurers reading Shorais application table or reading their FAQ are being lead to believe they need.

For many adventurers that own the BMW F650GS, F800GS, R1200GS, and R1200GSA, they bought LFX14s, because that is what Shorai told them to buy, then when those failed they sent in the difference and bought LFX18 because that is what Shorai told them they should now buy, and finally (so far) LFX21 because that is at this time what Shorai is saying they really should have bought.

Hopping on the Shorai bandwagon with the $160 LFX14 only to find you actually need the $350 LFX36 is not pleasant!

Also, when you say "with close to 500 cranking amps" are you saying you tested that battery for 30 seconds at 500 amps and it maintained above 7.2 volts at the terminals? Because thats what "cranking amps" means, weather Hot Cranking Amps (HCA=80F, 30 seconds, 7.2 volts min), Cranking Amps (CA=32F, 30 seconds, 7.2 volts min), or Cold Cranking Amps (CCA=0F, 30 seconds, 7.2 volts min).

If you mean it will put out 500 amps for 5 seconds and remain above 7.2 volts, so will my 2 year old $50 Yuasa YTX12
Brief duration cranking or load tests is easy. Repeated or long duration cranking / load tests is where the meat hits the grinder!

Shall I post a video of drawing 500 amps briefly from a $50 battery? YES, I absolutely should lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post

one major benefit my LiFePO4 tests enjoy is starting out with a brand new battery. that part I insisted on. using someone's used battery that no telling what's been done to it could result in results that are valid or bogus. same for using the proper charger. a dedicated LiFePO4 charger is necessary to bring battery to full charge and balance the battery.

currently there is NO way to balance battery except to take out battery and charge on dedicated charger with balancing capacities. I've got a circuit design in mind that I'd like to get fabricated that hopefully will solve balancing issues while on the bike.

charging LiFePO4 battery packs is old hat for RC folks and electric vehicles folks. but catch is they all are using chargers with balancing circuitry. running LiFePO4 batteries bare with NO battery management systems is brand new. BMS large enough to support 200+ amps would be cost prohibitive and too large to carry on a motorcycle.

LiFePO4 mfg have not advertised it... but currently the only way to balance your LiFePO4 battery is with a dedicated charger with balance features. which can be sourced for under $40 if one knows what to look for. most folks don't need a Powerlab 8 with capacity to charge/discharge at 1350 watts. for most LiFePO4 batteries ... 2-3 amp charger is ample.

my results so far indicated ... LiFePO4 batteries put out more than ample current to start my R80G/S which admittedly only draws about 125 amps during warm weather. during cold conditions that goes up to 200+ amps.

yes.. I do agree with your sentiments about actual vs PBEQ ratings. what counts is actual amp hours delivered! period!
You may have missed it if you didn't carefully read the thread or subtitles on video, but I have 4 Shorai batteries I am testing. 2 are used which I hugely appreciate because it gives me real life data of how the batteries are holding up. 1 has only been used for a week before being brought to me, and the one that turned into a smoke bomb was brand spanking new and sent to me by a dealership that wanted to know if they should actually carry them.

The factor of approximately 2.5 that Shorai is underperforming in the CCA department compared to old lead/acid batteries has held across all of them.

I am not writing off the chemistry, But build quality, lack of water proofness, ridiculously overstated specifications.... For adventure riding, I have written Shorai off.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:23 AM   #126
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Great job Joel, after all this I know that Shorai is off my shopping list ( for the moment).
By the way do you know (or anybody else) which regulator rectifier would be the best option for F800 ? As far as I nremember you've said it shold be one with charging voltage of 14.2 - 14.4-5 volts and 400 watts and more. I've spent ages looking at this website http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/ but can't find any as they do not list any specifications.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:36 AM   #127
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The Shindengen SH541SC might be an option ....... from the very limited data we've got so far it might be that BMW has stopped using the SH541G and gone the the -SC which does appear to have a higher stable charging voltage (does not drop off at higher RPM).

Of course I'm not sure it's much of an option since so far I can't find a place to buy one of them either.......
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:04 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
I have a new oem F8 regulator labeled "SC" and am curious to see if it has an affect. Interestingly the 2 oem regulators in BMW's USA parts inventory are also labeled "SC" So if these are consistently higher voltage, then BMW is making a quiet change and probably just exhausting the last of inventory on new bikes which is SOP for pretty much every manufacture.
Joel, FWIW when I removed the 2 screws to look at the back of my RR, it sure looked like someone had been there before me futzing around. The Torx heads were shredded & bad enough that I chose to put new bolts in place of them in fear that I may not be able to remove them again in the future. (BTW all is well with the check ball removed)
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:54 AM   #129
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sorry guys, took a 3 day ride so been out of the loop for a bit.

Mike C I am knee deep in testing an Antigravity battery and SO FAR it has passed everything the Shorai failed.


As to regulators RadoR6, and others, i'm against a time table to get the battery tests done before going on another trip, this one 3,000 miles, and may not get to exploring that area more before I am back in 10 days.

The oe one with a part# ending with "SC" APPEARS to have optimal charging voltage AND appears to be in the parts channel. Thats to say, 2 dealers that are stocking one both have units marked "SC" as do I as the warranty replacement for my regulator that failed which I never used as I adapted something else to work while waiting for the regulator to come from Germany.

Once I have a little time and someone with an F8 pops buy, I will test the theory, but it APPEARS BMW is making an improvement starting with the parts channel.

Back shortly with some Antigravity tests and so far they look very good/
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:59 AM   #130
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As has been pointed out in this thread a couple of times, LiFePO chemistry has very specific charging requirements that a motorcycle regulator can't begin to meet. Crude motorcycle regulators are designed to charge very forgiving lead-acid chemistry, so LiFePO batteries are destined to fail quickly in motorcycle use before the first meter is taken out of its case. Motorcycle regulators generate a large AC component on top of the DC because most regulators shunt all output to ground then switch to full output then shunt again--maintaining an average DC charge voltage. Lead-acid can tolerate this large AC component. LiFePO will not.

But even if there was a motorcycle regulator that could provide the very specific current-regulated, then voltage-regulated charge cycle for lithium-ion, these Shorai batteries would still fail very quickly because multi-cell lithium-ion batteries require cell-balancing circuitry to properly charge and discharge. From Joel's testing, it's pretty obvious these batteries have no cell-balancing circuitry.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:13 PM   #131
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@Strongbad

Your first pointsI would agree with if we were talking lithium/manganese or lithium/cobalt, but Lithium ferrous phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries aren't that hard to charge.

Unlike lead acid they can tolerate remaining in a 20%-100% SOC for a very long time (years). With lead acid, you either keep it at 100% SOC or you it ages rapidly.

LiFePO4 can also tolerate over voltage, as well or better then lead acid. What we really have with these LiFePO4 batteries is a battery that can safely and reliably be charged to any voltage between 13.27 and 14.6 volts, have plenty of capacity and not cook.

As for AC ripple, no, neither lead/acid or LiFePO4 like it, but I see nothing that says LiFePO4 likes it any less then lead/acid. Here I suspect you are referring to Lithium/cobalt which absolutely hates AC ripple.

Happily, there is very little AC ripple from shunt style motorcycle charging systems, but I will measure it for you either way.

What shunt style regulators do produce is large magnitude pulsed DC, which neither AGM lead/acid or LiFePO4 batteries mind at all, though flooded lead/acid is not a fan of such as it blows active material off of the plates.


As far as max charging rate, YES this was getting Shorai batteries to fail, but only because they completely mis-advertise the LiFePO4 battery size many models need. As long as you have a battery that can take a charge at the maximum rate a motorcycle charging system has left after powering the normal always on bike systems, you have a battery charging system that is intrinsically limited and is in effect, a 2 stage charger (bulk, finish. AKA CCC CVC).

People that ran the 4.8 AH LFX14 down, then charged it by going for a ride were charging at greater then C/3 and had their batteries fail rapidly. Same is true to a lesser extent with the LFX 18, but with the LFX 21 recommendation from Shorai, the max charging rate while in the F800 is finally below C/3 by a safe margin.

As far as cell balance. LiFePO4 cells in parallel will naturally balance just fine, but of course a motorcycle LiFePO4 battery will have anywhere from parallel banks of 1 to 6 cells that are in series with 3 other banks, and this was a problem for the Shorai as less then 0.2 mA would flow past the first full cell to remaining cells which isn't enough to balance them at least at 13.84 volts that most F8's charge at.

Raise the voltage to 14.4 volts and enough current flows through full cells to balance the remaining Shorai calls.



I'm one hour from having had the Antigravity battery at a constant charge of 13.84 volts and 7mA is still flowing This will tend to balance it's cells naturally.

Time is the true test, but the outlook of Antigravity loosing cell balance from varying internal self discharge (soft shorting) looks good even with the stock F8 charging system voltage.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:43 PM   #132
JRWooden
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Location: The great state of confusion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
... The oe one with a part# ending with "SC" APPEARS to have optimal charging voltage AND appears to be in the parts channel. Thats to say, 2 dealers that are stocking one both have units marked "SC" as do I as the warranty replacement for my regulator that failed which I never used as I adapted something else to work while waiting for the regulator to come from Germany...
Very interesting ....
I guess all us guys with out-of-warranty bikes are on our own as I doubt there would be any service campaign to upgrade us?

MaxBMW show no superceeded P/N (not surprising) for the R/R and a price of $147
Oddly, they do show that the regulator BRACKET has been superceeded....

The SC substitution "should" at least marginally improve stator life I would think ... higher voltage at all RPMs?
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:05 PM   #133
strongbad
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Joel, I have to respectfully disagree on almost every point. If you could show me some engineering paper that supports your assertion that "LiFePO4 can also tolerate over voltage" I'd be willing to change my mind. However every engineering paper I've read regarding lithium-ion charging in general, and LiFePO4 charging in particular, contradicts your statements. This one for example:

http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...008PROOF_9.pdf

Quote:
...LiMn2O4 and LiFePO4 materials cannot be overcharged and at the end of charge there is a steep voltage rise. This clear
advantage regarding safety actually becomes a disadvantage for battery management because the charge can be limited by the
first charged cell. Overcoming this issue can necessitate the use of more aggressive balancing circuits. The issue of ‘slope’
and balancing is discussed further below...
The makers of charging chips, or gas gauges, or cell-balancing chips have good application notes for charging LiFePO4 such as Texas Instruments:

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt357/slyt357.pdf

or Microchip:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/smart-...crocontrollers

All these papers and many more specifically recommend against overcharging LiFePO4--or trickle charging the chemistry-- which is what a motorcycle regulator output continuously does.

Standard motorcycle battery rectifier/regulator + LiFePO4 chemistry = batterycide
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:29 PM   #134
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongbad View Post
Joel, I have to respectfully disagree on almost every point. If you could show me some engineering paper that supports your assertion that "LiFePO4 can also tolerate over voltage" I'd be willing to change my mind. However every engineering paper I've read regarding lithium-ion charging in general, and LiFePO4 charging in particular, contradicts your statements. This one for example:

http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...008PROOF_9.pdf

The makers of charging chips, or gas gauges, or cell-balancing chips have good application notes for charging LiFePO4 such as Texas Instruments:

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt357/slyt357.pdf

or Microchip:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/smart-...crocontrollers

All these papers and many more specifically recommend against overcharging LiFePO4--or trickle charging the chemistry-- which is what a motorcycle regulator output continuously does.

Standard motorcycle battery rectifier/regulator + LiFePO4 chemistry = batterycide
strongbad... thanks for posting these papers... got to go with Joel on this one... the first one is by Saft is quite a bit higher quality, Saft was one of the earliest li-ion batteries that I fooled with on Candlepower forums.

2nd and 3rd papers tells very little about safety or lack of from charging LiFePO4 batteries. the Saft papers however contains some very important information concerning why LiFePO4 batteries get out of balance.

back to that later... but first lithium cobalt is inherently dangerous when overcharged. unlike Lithium iron phosphate which is dramatically safer. all batteries when overcharged will do bad things. lithium cobalt is probably the worst... lithium cobalt is fully charged at 4.2v, but will accept a charge until thermal runaway (explosion) occurs about about 4.4v.

here's a article I wrote on this topic in 2007.
greatest danger using li-ion cells occurs during re-charging

for all practical purposes LiFePO4 cannot be overcharged without some real effort. LiFePO4 when fully charged volts spikes upwards preventing further charge without substantially raising voltage.

Let's say we have a shunt failure in an alternator charging system and volts spikes to say 19v. in case of Lithium cobalt... results would probably be thermal run-away with companion cells igniting ... making for some most excellent fireworks. vs same shunt failure with LiFePO4 battery... results would be severe overheating with lots of smoke. still not a nice result... if the same thing happened to wet lead acid with much nastier results ...

"For a significant improvement in safety in a positive electrode material it is necessary to move away from oxide materials to ones based on phosphates. Lithiated iron phosphate (LiFePO4) was developed by a team led by Dr. John Goodenough while working at the University of Texas 4 (Goodenough was also one of the principal researchers at Sony in the original development of lithium-ion technology). Phosphate bonds are much stronger than those in oxides, with the result that when abusively overcharged, LiFePO4 cells release very little energy. Cells using LiFePO4 have reasonable calendar life and excellent cycling characteristics as long as they are operated at moderate temperatures. Unfortunately, however, the added safety comes at the cost of significantly lower energy density (which in itself contributes to enhanced safety), so it is no coincidence that commercial success for this material has been achieved in products designed for short-duration, high-power discharges, such as those now used in commercial power tools."

------------------------------------

@Joel...like I said earlier, sure wish we could merge these two threads that cannot help but cover much of the same materials. now I've got to post this same information in my thread.

finally found what I'd been looking for about cause for out of balance condition. charging at higher volt say 14.4v will not help balance LiFePO4 cells.

"LiMn2O4 and LiFePO4 materials cannot be overcharged and at the end of charge there is a steep voltage rise. This clear advantage regarding safety actually becomes a disadvantage for battery management because the charge can be limited by the first charged cell. Overcoming this issue can necessitate the use of more aggressive balancing circuits. The issue of ‘slope’ and balancing is discussed further below. ~


As already discussed, lithium-ion batteries must use electronics for cell balancing, so systems with sloping curves of this type are easy to balance; if the cells are at the same voltage they are necessarily also at the same SOC.

Other systems have much flatter SOC vs. voltage profiles and therefore face greater difficulties in cell balancing. Cells with LiFePO4 positives, for example, have very flat voltages over virtually the whole SOC range, steeply ramping up only at the very end of charge. This means that they must be charged into the sloping part of the curve in order to balance them. This requirement is fine for systems such as power tools that require full charging and are designed around the battery, but presents challenges for operation at partial SOC levels, such as in hybrid electric vehicles. In stationary applications LiFePO4-based batteries could not be charged over a range of voltages, if doing so would mean that their cells would not be charging in the area with slope.

The biggest disadvantage of slope is that non-ideal charging can impact SOC in service. With lithium-ion cell voltages typically above 3 V there is little possibility to fine-tune the number of cells to meet specific application requirements."

http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...008PROOF_9.pdf

_cy_ screwed with this post 04-04-2012 at 09:43 PM
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:09 PM   #135
JoelWisman OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongbad View Post
Joel, I have to respectfully disagree on almost every point. If you could show me some engineering paper that supports your assertion that "LiFePO4 can also tolerate over voltage" I'd be willing to change my mind. However every engineering paper I've read regarding lithium-ion charging in general, and LiFePO4 charging in particular, contradicts your statements.

........................

Standard motorcycle battery rectifier/regulator + LiFePO4 chemistry = batterycide
You are at a disadvantage here because you are arguing about something that is already an observed fact.

LiFePO4 batteries have been being used on motorcycles with stock shunt regulators designed for lead/acid chemistry with no ill effect on the LiFePO4 batteries for about 3 years.

Failures are sporadic and the industry is still learning, but most failures occur in SLI applications due to extreme over-current (grossly undersized batteries, hello Shorai application chart), water intrusion (hello Shorai, and early and current manufactures that just shrink wrap the cells as well as possibly Ballistic performance batteries TBD), and over-discharge (user mistake and abuse, occasionally due to manufactures such as Shorai advertising true self discharge rates without mentioning a bikes affect with parasitic drain, or their B.S. advertising of silly AH PBEQ)

Lastly there are sporadic battery failures due to cell balance issues with certain manufactures when used in certain bikes which are one kind frequently occurring on Shorai batteries in K7x (F800GS, F650GS twin....) due to the bikes lower then usual charging voltage.

These are the conditions manufactures are warranting LiFePO4 batteries for, not ac ripple or the lack of precise charge control.

This link: http://www.rev-electricbikekits.com....0Batteries.pdf

does a good job at explaining why LiFePO4 batteries can tolerate imprecise charging and have some natural self balance abilities IF the charge voltage is high enough.

Different cell manufactures dope their cells slightly differently which affects charge acceptance. As it happens, a Shorai battery, at least the 4 I tested need a minimum of 14.4 volts for significant time periods to naturally series balance cells.

At 29 hours (battery was first fully charged by 14.6 volts constant for 5 hours) of constant voltage of 13.84 volts, I'm happy to report that Antigravity will begin natural series balancing at even this low voltage because they are doped in a way that allows a small current (6mA) to flow past the full charge knee. If this Antigravity battery were out of balance, the 6mA flowing past the full cell(s) would be slowly charging the lowest cells back into balance. It would take eons, but is high enough that significant imbalance will never come to be in the first place.

There are white papers out there covering all of this, but I just can't get my motivation up high enough to dig them up when I could be riding or testing batteries myself when the principals are already commonly accepted with LiFePO4 chemistry.

So, In this case, I will source myself :)

Joel Wisman

Around 126 credit hours, all 4.0 except for one stupid class.

Ages in technical classes from automotive, electric motor, battery, and motorcycle manufactures, most of which I was awake for and not too badly hung over.

Ex licensed supervising industrial electrician responsible for megabucks worth of batteries of varying chemistry,

24 years in technical fields

Rarely proven wrong on Adventure Rider, though it has happened
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