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Old 04-19-2012, 07:57 PM   #31
Woodsrat
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Reckon there's a reason Briggs and Stratton doesn't approve ethanol fuels in their engines and won't honor warranty problems caused by it??? Same goes for two-stroke small engines like weedeaters and chain saws. Stories about shorter engine life are rampant.

A friend of mine owned a Honda shop and if he prepped the small scooters and let them sit on the floor a week with ethanol gas in them they wouldn't hit a lick without a carburetor cleaning. The tiny passages within them would clog up with a gel-like goo. After he'd cleaned a few he wouldn't put a drop in them until the customer was ready to ride them home. This mirrors my experiences with my own small bikes.

The most ardent supporters of corn gas are farmers and people involved with it's production. Everyone else thinks it's terrible.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:15 PM   #32
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By the way until recently race cars used methanol, not ethanol. Ask any IRL crew chief which fuel he'd rather run and every one of them will tell you methanol.

My biggest gripe about running the stuff in normal street vehicles is alcohol's affinity to water which it soaks up like a sponge right out of the air. There's a paste available that you can check your fuel for water content with (can't remember it's name) and it horrifies me how much water I find in my vehicles' gas tanks. Since it settles to the bottom it accellerates the rusting of steel gas tanks, too.

Hopefully the political winds of change with do away with this horrible "fuel".
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:45 PM   #33
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The whole ethanol thing is nothing but a bunch of political BS.
The ethanol used in gasoline requires more energy to produce than it allegedly saves when mixed in gasoline, not to mention that it is more environmentally unfriendly to produce.
It also raises food prices because it takes food crops off the market.
If it wasn't being subsidized by taxpayers, (that's us), it would cost as much, or more, than gasoline.
This doesn't even include all of the damage to vehicles which were never designed to run this junk.

And now they are pushing to make it 15%. Insanity!
A fricking men. The long and the short of it is that we end up paying more money to the gas companies directly and indirectly for something that doesn't help us. It is money better invested elsewhere. Ethanol is a complete con that achieves non of the stated objectives and actually causes far more damage that the good it allegedly does. The sooner this crap is gone the better. Election times ahead, time to get the truth out there and see if any of them have the bawls to go against the gas companies bankrolling them.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:21 AM   #34
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I've tried Ethanol Free Gas in all my vehicles, and the problem I've encountered is that of getting bad gas. Last time I filled up the ET4 with a very expensive tank of 93 octane ethanol free, it got about a quarter mile down the road and started bogging. Then it wouldn't idle. I ran the gas out and put in 87 octane, and it ran fine and idled like it's supposed to.
We have a high water table here in Charleston, and a lot of tanks have been in the ground for years, and the new fuel EPA approved formulations start to degrade in 2 weeks. Betweeen that and the economy, the high end gas often sits longer in the ground than it should. We've been telling people to buy 87 octane from any station that sells a lot of gas and have been pretty successful as far as avoiding bad gas in most bikes. Keep in mind that one of the treatments to remove water from gas is Ethanol, so it is more likely to carry the bad stuff through the engine than straight gas, which will allow water to separate out into the bottom of the tank.
The use of Ethanol in Gasoline is one of the reasons world food prices have risen so radically in the last few years, and it's been said that producing ethanol from corn takes more energy than is created.
Yamaha has been building Ethanol resistant vehicles since the late 80s, and sent a memo out to this effect when the E10 first hit. Most of the Vespas I see from the mid 2000s have disintegrating fuel and vacuum lines. I attribute that to alcohol, but it could be something else. Most of the mail order Chinese bikes are not built with ethanol resistant rubber and vinyl, and that's one of the reasons you see them using so many carburetors. One area where we haven't seen a problem is in the 2 Strokes, because their carb is little more than a giant main jet, and everything goes through and comes out the other side, so there's not much for ethanol to attack, even on the cheap ones.
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:26 PM   #35
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Nobody else has experienced that.

I would doubt your veracity.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:15 PM   #36
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Just to piss everybody off on here I will say that on all my personal vehicles , 2 TRUCKS-1CAR-A SHITLOAD OF BIKES, I can not see any difference in mileage or performance between the 2 fuels and I routinely check mileage.I have a station near my house that sells 3 grades of non eth gas and have experimented many times. The only times I'll pay the extra money for non eth gas is near the end of the riding season when the bikes usage starts to decline.In my tractor ,mower and snow blower I simply either run them out of fuel or shut off the fuel and run them dry after each use and have had no fuel related problems yet.I have replaced a shitload of in tank fuel pumps though which is one of the things they say is caused by the ethanol but they were all in the 8-10 yr age and that seems to be status quo for fuel pumps these days.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:47 PM   #37
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You might want to check to verify that station is in fact ethanol-free. Most people do get a boost of mileage with ethanol free fuel.

For the past 9 years I had been buying all my gas at the same station with 10% ethanol mix summer and winter. I've kept records of my purchases with mileage written on the receipts for my SUV. Almost without fail I've been getting 20-21.3mpg those 9 years. When the station a little out of my way began advertising ethanol-free gas I gave it a try. My first tank of that gas I registered 24.6mpg. I've yet to get under 22mpg even in winter conditions. I expect to get about 24 as the weather warms up with the ethanol free gas. I just filled up my Burgman earlier today - I'm getting 48.54mpg in mostly city driving - with jaunts to the golf course with 5 miles of 60mph and a couple of miles of 25-35mph. Thats also with ethanol free gas. I should be able to get over 50mpg on sustained 55-60mph with the Burgman.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:10 PM   #38
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I'm pretty certain about the no eth gas as the station was just featured in the local papers as the only one in the area to carry multiple grades. However, I tend to be a leadfoot and twisthappy on the throttle so my experience may differ from someone intent on maximizing their fuel usage. I did just get the best mileage ever out of my 86 Renault,40mpg on a highway trip running ethanol gas. Best I ever got before was 37 . I did however, have a new exhaust made for it due to the fact that a replacement wasn't available any longer and I believe the tubing is of larger diameter all the way back where the factory exhaust was pretty skimpy at some of the bends.Whats more amazing is I've had this car from new and it still gets better mileage then most new cars 25yrs newer. where the hell is the progress.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:29 PM   #39
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I'm pretty certain about the no eth gas as the station was just featured in the local papers as the only one in the area to carry multiple grades. However, I tend to be a leadfoot and twisthappy on the throttle so my experience may differ from someone intent on maximizing their fuel usage. I did just get the best mileage ever out of my 86 Renault,40mpg on a highway trip running ethanol gas. Best I ever got before was 37 . I did however, have a new exhaust made for it due to the fact that a replacement wasn't available any longer and I believe the tubing is of larger diameter all the way back where the factory exhaust was pretty skimpy at some of the bends.Whats more amazing is I've had this car from new and it still gets better mileage then most new cars 25yrs newer. where the hell is the progress.
The "progress" is the extra 300-500 pounds of mandated stuff. Air bags, stronger frames, doors, pillers, etc.
I got better hwy MPG out of my '64 Valiant "6" than I do out of my 2012 Kia Soul. 34 MPG hwy vs 31.9.
Is your Renault a Le Car by chance?
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:32 PM   #40
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I'm pretty certain about the no eth gas as the station was just featured in the local papers as the only one in the area to carry multiple grades. However, I tend to be a leadfoot and twisthappy on the throttle so my experience may differ from someone intent on maximizing their fuel usage. I did just get the best mileage ever out of my 86 Renault,40mpg on a highway trip running ethanol gas. Best I ever got before was 37 . I did however, have a new exhaust made for it due to the fact that a replacement wasn't available any longer and I believe the tubing is of larger diameter all the way back where the factory exhaust was pretty skimpy at some of the bends.Whats more amazing is I've had this car from new and it still gets better mileage then most new cars 25yrs newer. where the hell is the progress.
Ethanol contains LESS energy than gasoline. Not more; LESS.

Which means for the same power, an engine needs to burn more of it. This is physics; not opinion and not variable.

I suspect your local paper writer did NO research - just ran a puff piece, maybe a paid piece. A lot of places have mislabled gasoline; grades; additives; even whether it's ethanol free. I used to live just off an Indian reservation in New York State. They had the right to sell gasoline tax-free; which made the gas about thirty cents a gallon cheaper.

Their regular grade was fine; but when I had a car that needed premium, it would ping like mad on Indian alleged-premium gas. Had to buy highly-taxed High Octane in town; only then would the ping disappear.

So...if nobody's watching, your station is probably passing gasohol off as straight gas. And regular out of the premium pump, too. It happens...when you find it, change brands.

If you're REALLY curious, there's probably ways of testing. Buy a gallon of gas and test it with a hygrometer or whatever you can find to test for alcohol.
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:03 AM   #41
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Pretty certain they're honest Injuns on the gas. Its a largly, or at one time was, farming area where a lot of the farmers were complaining about the eth ruining the older equipment. The station owners went to great lengths to find out 1st if they could legally sell non-eth and then found a supplier. I also fully understand the science aspect to the mileage it just doesnt change the fact that my mileage stays pretty consistant.
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:59 AM   #42
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I've worked around refineries and ethanol plants for over 20 years. I've watched the EPA stick their noses in places that it shouldn't ever have gone, and regulations from other Federal agencies that make no sense at all. Part of the problem the U.S. has is you get people making regulations that have zero practical experience and an ideology that is contrary to everything we do.
Go back to the early 70's, when the Feds outlawed tetra-ethyl lead, they replaced it with MTBE. MTBE was so nasty, every single piece of fuel handling equipment had to replace their rubber seals with either telfon or a rubber call Kalrez. Finally after 20 years, these bureaucrats (actually the next generation of brain dead Federal employees) figured out the MTBE was a terrible chemical and caused all kinds of problems; cancer, ground water pollution, etc. They should have gone to ethanol then, but guess who was making the MTBE? If you guessed the chemical divisions of oil companies you'd be right. Oil companies paid good money for the privilege of making their own required fuel additive.
Don't buy into the bs that ethanol takes food away from people. That's not even close to being true. Yes, most ethanol is currently being made from corn, but the corn doesn't disappear when the ethanol is removed from it. The processed corn is then made into animal feed. There are millions of acres of farmland that the Feds pay the farmers, NOT to farm. There are other crops that can be used to make ethanol, basically any plant that has starch in it. They are working on new ethanol plants that use wheat straw and switch grass, all types of plant material to make the ethanol from. The difference is it takes a lot more of these materials to make the same volume of ethanol.
If ethanol had been used 40 years ago, the learning curve of which rubbers to use and clearances for fuel pumps, etc would not be an issue.
So, thank your fat cat politicians and government bureaucrats for all the problems, most of them are enjoying retirement or dead.
E85 is a great race car fuel, especially for boosted motors. It has an octane rating of 100-105 and can replace $10/gal race gas.
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:58 AM   #43
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

GGE - Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (US Gallons) tables

GGE Calculated for Gasoline in US Gallons at 114,000 BTU per Gallon

Fuel - Liquid, US Gallons GGE GGE % BTU/Gal kWh/Gal
Gasoline (base)[2] 1.0000 100.00% 114,000 33.41
Gasoline (conventional, summer)[2] 0.9960 100.40% 114,500 33.56
Gasoline (conventional, winter)[2] 1.0130 98.72% 112,500 32.97
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, ethanol)[2] 1.0190 98.14% 111,836 32.78
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, ETBE)[2] 1.0190 98.14% 111,811 32.77
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, MTBE)[2] 1.0200 98.04% 111,745 32.75
Gasoline (10% MBTE)[3] 1.0200 98.04% 112,000 32.83
Gasoline (regular unleaded)[4] 1.0000 100.00% 114,100 33.44
Diesel #2[4] 0.8800 113.64% 129,500 37.95
Biodiesel (B100)[4] 0.9600 104.17% 118,300 34.80
Bio Diesel (B20)[4] 0.9000 111.11% 127,250 37.12
Liquid natural gas (LNG)[4] 1.5362 65.10% 75,000 21.75
Liquefied petroleum gas (propane) (LPG)[4] 1.3500 74.04% 84,300 24.75
Methanol fuel (M100)[4] 2.0100 49.75% 56,800 16.62


Please note the amount of ethanol and methanol needed to provide the equivalent energy to one gallon of gasoline. I happen to believe the E10 energy mixture energy is overstated; but I'm not a petroleum engineer and cannot prove it.

Some of the poorer-mileage figures in some vehicles, including my BMW cycle, have to do with closed-loop computer-controlled fuel-injection systems with sensors in the exhaust. Ethanol apparently messes that up; mileage on my cycle would drop from 48 to 42 on a tank of rotgut.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:34 PM   #44
ABritOnMaui
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I've worked around refineries and ethanol plants for over 20 years. I've watched the EPA stick their noses in places that it shouldn't ever have gone, and regulations from other Federal agencies that make no sense at all. Part of the problem the U.S. has is you get people making regulations that have zero practical experience and an ideology that is contrary to everything we do.
Go back to the early 70's, when the Feds outlawed tetra-ethyl lead, they replaced it with MTBE. MTBE was so nasty, every single piece of fuel handling equipment had to replace their rubber seals with either telfon or a rubber call Kalrez. Finally after 20 years, these bureaucrats (actually the next generation of brain dead Federal employees) figured out the MTBE was a terrible chemical and caused all kinds of problems; cancer, ground water pollution, etc. They should have gone to ethanol then, but guess who was making the MTBE? If you guessed the chemical divisions of oil companies you'd be right. Oil companies paid good money for the privilege of making their own required fuel additive.
Don't buy into the bs that ethanol takes food away from people. That's not even close to being true. Yes, most ethanol is currently being made from corn, but the corn doesn't disappear when the ethanol is removed from it. The processed corn is then made into animal feed. There are millions of acres of farmland that the Feds pay the farmers, NOT to farm. There are other crops that can be used to make ethanol, basically any plant that has starch in it. They are working on new ethanol plants that use wheat straw and switch grass, all types of plant material to make the ethanol from. The difference is it takes a lot more of these materials to make the same volume of ethanol.
If ethanol had been used 40 years ago, the learning curve of which rubbers to use and clearances for fuel pumps, etc would not be an issue.
So, thank your fat cat politicians and government bureaucrats for all the problems, most of them are enjoying retirement or dead.
E85 is a great race car fuel, especially for boosted motors. It has an octane rating of 100-105 and can replace $10/gal race gas.
Personally I don't mind to concept of regulation, however, I agree entirely with you. The way it is practised is terrible. Politicians setting policy in areas they don't have a clue about and often are in the pocket of some company or individual, it's disgusting. (oh and it is not limited to just the USA, this isn't an anti usa rant :), happens everywhere).


Re the indian reservation gas, would it not be better to keep buying it and add octane booster to stop the knocking? Just curious?
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:04 PM   #45
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And as you've found, it makes starting harder.
That is also the reason that you can't get pure ethanol, cold it doesn't have enough ass to start most low compression motors.

Ethanol is great when you are running exotic forced induction rigs that the spools alone and capable of heating the intake charge to the point that you start cracking pistons, the cooler burn is a good thing.

..and yeah I have a flex-fuel F-150, I ran exactly one tank of E86 through it, the range went from 365miles a tank to 190 miles to a tank.

The dollar off the price doesn't make up for the lack of efficiency.
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