Which scooter powerplant for a project?

brianwheelies · 04-21-2012, 04:52 PM

I got hooked on scooters after getting my first one just shy of a year ago but I want to make something that isn't available. A scooter engined all purpose cycle with recumbent seating position. Think a tubular version of those hyper-miler scooters that get 150+ mpg.

The requirements for the engine:

Cruise at 60 to 65mph

Low maintenance(3,000 mile oil change intervals, valve adjustments twice as long)

Can be carbed or FI.

Has a 12" or bigger rear wheel that could handle 5" of travel, possibly more depending on the shock length.

Engine can't have any adverse affects from being at more of an angle to the ground than normal(problems with oil pick up or transmission gears not being lubed by oil bath.

Basically able to handle some light off road work.

Thoughts?

HandKPhil · 04-21-2012, 05:27 PM

I've been thinking about the same thing. Probably the best choice would be the drivetrain out of a new BV350, or a new Downtown 300, because they're the most advanced engines out there today as far as specific power output, efficiency, etc. Downside to these two choices are the cost, and the fact that you'd have to sacrifice one of two awesome new scooters to get your donor drivetrain.

Next best choice might be a Burgman 400 or Majesty 400 drivetrain. These scooters are relatively cheap, and they're everywhere. These drivetrains are used to pulling around 700-plus pounds of man and machine, and their suspensions and brakes are also up to the task.

Another reason favoring the Majesty 400 is that I happen to have one in my garage.

MODNROD · 04-23-2012, 07:39 AM

If I was starting from scratch, and only needed cruise speeds below 70mph, I would factor in the strong aero advantage offered by building from scratch, and combined with exceptional light weight - if at all possible - would be looking at something around 125cc. The Yamaha BW motor is pretty efficient, and has an enormous aftermarket support, just in case you need to go bigger than you expect later, or need to tune-in the CVT stuff to suit the new ride.
These things get great economy, and will happily do close to those speeds almost standard, so by the time you've got the lightweight and aero advantage it will do it real easy.

To give an idea of aero effects, the Moto Guzzi 350cc IOM racers with their cool "dustbin" fairings had a top speed over 150MPH in the mid-50's. When the fairing design was banned, they could barely manage hi-120'sMPH........

alicethomas · 04-23-2012, 08:15 AM

Something like this!?: http://www.evomoto.de/index-Dateien/page0078.htm

TheReaper! · 04-23-2012, 08:17 AM

I agre with the 400cc burgman or the Yamaha , I would grab some thing like this where you have all the mechanial and electrical parts . Then you could sell off the stuff you don't need , pretty cheap

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/mcy/2965792453.html

HandKPhil · 04-23-2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MODNROD

If I was starting from scratch, and only needed cruise speeds below 70mph, I would factor in the strong aero advantage offered by building from scratch, and combined with exceptional light weight - if at all possible - would be looking at something around 125cc. The Yamaha BW motor is pretty efficient, and has an enormous aftermarket support, just in case you need to go bigger than you expect later, or need to tune-in the CVT stuff to suit the new ride.
These things get great economy, and will happily do close to those speeds almost standard, so by the time you've got the lightweight and aero advantage it will do it real easy.

To give an idea of aero effects, the Moto Guzzi 350cc IOM racers with their cool "dustbin" fairings had a top speed over 150MPH in the mid-50's. When the fairing design was banned, they could barely manage hi-120'sMPH........

I'm thinking about embarking on a three-wheeled Micro Car project, and I like the fact that the Majesty already has a beefy, die-cast central "spine" to build around. Try Googling "Naked Yamaha Majesty" to see some pictures. In regards to the O.P.'s needs I know that the highest point on the aluminum frame (near the seat position) is pretty low on a Majesty - perfect for a "feel forward" project.

brianwheelies · 04-23-2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MODNROD

If I was starting from scratch, and only needed cruise speeds below 70mph, I would factor in the strong aero advantage offered by building from scratch, and combined with exceptional light weight - if at all possible - would be looking at something around 125cc. The Yamaha BW motor is pretty efficient, and has an enormous aftermarket support, just in case you need to go bigger than you expect later, or need to tune-in the CVT stuff to suit the new ride.
These things get great economy, and will happily do close to those speeds almost standard, so by the time you've got the lightweight and aero advantage it will do it real easy.

Very good point on aerodynamics as well as the Yamaha 125 engine.

This idea is tube frame, minimal bodywork, and able to play in the dirt.

Bodywork will be minimal and still not even sure if passenger accommodations will be provided but they could double as storage space.

creighta · 04-23-2012, 06:55 PM

I vote chinese for something like this, parts are cheap and you can find full bikes cheap too.

On the other hand, there was a guy a few years ago on the helix forum that put a 500cc rotax sled engine in a stripped down helix.....BAD ASS.

brianwheelies · 04-23-2012, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creighta

I vote chinese for something like this, parts are cheap and you can find full bikes cheap too.

On the other hand, there was a guy a few years ago on the helix forum that put a 500cc rotax sled engine in a stripped down helix.....BAD ASS.

Would you be willing to take a Chinese engined bike to the middle of nowhere?

Are you talking GY6?

btcn · 04-24-2012, 04:46 PM

Sounds cool! Please post up when you start building it!

I can't really know about the oil lubercations and angles on these engines.

I do agree on the aerodynamics though. If youse got real good aero, then you can gear the engine much taller [machine finial drive gears that's taller], and get much higher cruise speeds with low RPMs. Just don't overdo it on a smaller engine.

As for maintainence. Most engines can do well over 2-3K with a good synthetic oil, even if recommended at less. Valve adjustments? I never did one for years on my Elite. Runs fine but I's gonna do it now.

As for offroad. I take my old 86 Elite 150 off road all the time. And I don't exactly baby it! No flying 10 feet up in the air off jumps MX style, but I have some fun in the mud!

Eventually I'm fixin to put some sort of skid plate under it though to protect the coolant hoses and such. But its not necessary unless you do it a lot.

creighta · 04-24-2012, 06:04 PM

yes I was thinking gy6. The Linhai 250s are also pretty reliable powerplants. I knowseveral people that trust gy6 150s or even Honda 250 clone engines out through Kentucky on gocarts without worry. Our local Hammerhead dealer even sent a 250 up pikes peak last summer, so the engines can handle a beating off road and the reliability issues of being chinese can be overcome by the performance rebuild work.

vortexau · 04-24-2012, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwheelies

I . . .

Basically able to handle some light off road work.

Thoughts?

Except for that above- airflow efficient shells usually make riding off-road a problem.

Honda aerodynamic scooter conversion results in 214 mpg

Quote:

Experienced Dutch cycle designer Allert Jacobs has made a 319 pound vehicle (88 pounds heavier than the original scooter) capable of an amazing 214mpg at around 55mph with good conditions and only a 25mph wind. He opted for the small and light engined Honda Innova 125i, which was first made available to Europeans in 2006 and was intended to replace the popular Super Cub. The base machine before being made-over offered between 107 and 122mpg.

One of the early test studies.

TheReaper! · 04-24-2012, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vortexau

Except for that above- airflow efficient shells usually make riding off-road a problem.

Honda aerodynamic scooter conversion results in 214 mpg

One of the early test studies.

214mpg at around 55mph is impressive to put it mildly . TheReaper!

vortexau · 04-24-2012, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReaper!

214mpg at around 55mph is impressive to put it mildly . TheReaper!

Quote:

Jacobs suspects that some fine tuning will see his vehicle reach that target fuel efficiency of 235mpg

Allert Jacobs is gunning for even more impressive results.

I recall being happy with the 139mpg (Imperial) that was possible with a ordinary Honda C65 stepthrough back in the sixties. The 65cc motor was the FIRST OHC powerplant that Honda put into a Supercub.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I seem to recollect that the auto maker Daihatsu selecting 993cc in the Three-cylinder configuration for reasons of efficiency way back in their post-WWII history - of particular in the Charade. It was something along the lines of 330cc being an optimum volume for each cylinder's peak efficiency.

Coming soon: Three-cylinder engines

Matt Campbell

March 12, 2011

Straight-three engine

From Wikipedia

From that idea, I derive a single cylinder of 300cc - 350cc as being a good compromise for optimum fuel efficiency with top road speeds in no way being hampered. That 125cc of Jacobs (of course) remains great at lower top speeds.

Interesting, that my Burgman Exec employs two cylinders of 319cc each -- not so great for fuel economy, but it powers off from the line something wicked!

brianwheelies · 04-25-2012, 08:25 PM

It's really tough researching what would work best for this application.

Honda Helix(parts availability and can be had cheap)
Kymco engines(125 to 200cc)-again, cheap and reliable
GY6-cheap and able to be reliable, plenty of aftermarket.
Yamaha Vino 125-Can find bikes cheap and parts still available.

If the engine has a mount on the bottom it will be more difficult to have ground clearance. A horizontal engine will allow a lower profile frame design.

Not sure about air versus water cooled. Obviously the air cooled will be simpler with the lack of plumbing.

04-21-2012, 04:52 PM	#1
brianwheelies ^OP Iron toocus Joined: Aug 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV Oddometer: 927	Which scooter powerplant for a project? I got hooked on scooters after getting my first one just shy of a year ago but I want to make something that isn't available. A scooter engined all purpose cycle with recumbent seating position. Think a tubular version of those hyper-miler scooters that get 150+ mpg. The requirements for the engine: Cruise at 60 to 65mph Low maintenance(3,000 mile oil change intervals, valve adjustments twice as long) Can be carbed or FI. Has a 12" or bigger rear wheel that could handle 5" of travel, possibly more depending on the shock length. Engine can't have any adverse affects from being at more of an angle to the ground than normal(problems with oil pick up or transmission gears not being lubed by oil bath. Basically able to handle some light off road work. Thoughts?

04-21-2012, 05:27 PM	#2
HandKPhil Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Oct 2009 Location: Southeast Michigan Oddometer: 409	Very Interesting Question I've been thinking about the same thing. Probably the best choice would be the drivetrain out of a new BV350, or a new Downtown 300, because they're the most advanced engines out there today as far as specific power output, efficiency, etc. Downside to these two choices are the cost, and the fact that you'd have to sacrifice one of two awesome new scooters to get your donor drivetrain. Next best choice might be a Burgman 400 or Majesty 400 drivetrain. These scooters are relatively cheap, and they're everywhere. These drivetrains are used to pulling around 700-plus pounds of man and machine, and their suspensions and brakes are also up to the task. Another reason favoring the Majesty 400 is that I happen to have one in my garage. __________________ HandKPhil

04-23-2012, 07:39 AM	#3
MODNROD Perpetual ponderer Joined: Feb 2009 Location: Midwest, West Oz Oddometer: 1,661	If I was starting from scratch, and only needed cruise speeds below 70mph, I would factor in the strong aero advantage offered by building from scratch, and combined with exceptional light weight - if at all possible - would be looking at something around 125cc. The Yamaha BW motor is pretty efficient, and has an enormous aftermarket support, just in case you need to go bigger than you expect later, or need to tune-in the CVT stuff to suit the new ride. These things get great economy, and will happily do close to those speeds almost standard, so by the time you've got the lightweight and aero advantage it will do it real easy. To give an idea of aero effects, the Moto Guzzi 350cc IOM racers with their cool "dustbin" fairings had a top speed over 150MPH in the mid-50's. When the fairing design was banned, they could barely manage hi-120'sMPH........ __________________ Every ride's an adventure if you can't ride for crap http://www.dragtimes.com/Ducati-Mons...lip-10329.html

04-24-2012, 04:46 PM	#10
btcn Beastly Adventurer Joined: Jul 2010 Location: Morgan Hill CA Oddometer: 2,835	Sounds cool! Please post up when you start building it! I can't really know about the oil lubercations and angles on these engines. I do agree on the aerodynamics though. If youse got real good aero, then you can gear the engine much taller [machine finial drive gears that's taller], and get much higher cruise speeds with low RPMs. Just don't overdo it on a smaller engine. As for maintainence. Most engines can do well over 2-3K with a good synthetic oil, even if recommended at less. Valve adjustments? I never did one for years on my Elite. Runs fine but I's gonna do it now. As for offroad. I take my old 86 Elite 150 off road all the time. And I don't exactly baby it! No flying 10 feet up in the air off jumps MX style, but I have some fun in the mud! Eventually I'm fixin to put some sort of skid plate under it though to protect the coolant hoses and such. But its not necessary unless you do it a lot. __________________ 85 Honda Shadow 700, 86 Honda Elite 150 deluxe, 2001 Honda Elite 80, 07 CRF 100, 07 CRF 50, 07 DRZ 250, 78 CB 400 Automatic [Project Bike]

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04-23-2012, 08:15 AM	#4
alicethomas Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Jan 2011 Location: Palatinate, Germany Oddometer: 328	Something like this!?: http://www.evomoto.de/index-Dateien/page0078.htm

04-23-2012, 08:17 AM	#5
TheReaper! Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Aug 2009 Location: S.E. Michigan Oddometer: 480	I agre with the 400cc burgman or the Yamaha , I would grab some thing like this where you have all the mechanial and electrical parts . Then you could sell off the stuff you don't need , pretty cheap http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/mcy/2965792453.html

04-23-2012, 06:55 PM	#8
creighta Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: sOHi Oddometer: 95	I vote chinese for something like this, parts are cheap and you can find full bikes cheap too. On the other hand, there was a guy a few years ago on the helix forum that put a 500cc rotax sled engine in a stripped down helix.....BAD ASS.

04-24-2012, 06:04 PM	#11
creighta Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: sOHi Oddometer: 95	yes I was thinking gy6. The Linhai 250s are also pretty reliable powerplants. I knowseveral people that trust gy6 150s or even Honda 250 clone engines out through Kentucky on gocarts without worry. Our local Hammerhead dealer even sent a 250 up pikes peak last summer, so the engines can handle a beating off road and the reliability issues of being chinese can be overcome by the performance rebuild work.

04-25-2012, 08:25 PM	#15
brianwheelies ^OP Iron toocus Joined: Aug 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV Oddometer: 927	It's really tough researching what would work best for this application. Honda Helix(parts availability and can be had cheap) Kymco engines(125 to 200cc)-again, cheap and reliable GY6-cheap and able to be reliable, plenty of aftermarket. Yamaha Vino 125-Can find bikes cheap and parts still available. If the engine has a mount on the bottom it will be more difficult to have ground clearance. A horizontal engine will allow a lower profile frame design. Not sure about air versus water cooled. Obviously the air cooled will be simpler with the lack of plumbing.