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Old 04-26-2012, 09:25 AM   #46
Alton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargev55 View Post
if google is correct, adv has close to 200k members. the forum says 191,181, so google was pretty close.

most of us ride regularly, or use the bike to commute, and apparently none, or very few of us own one. not promising, considering the over the top stuff a lot of us like to do or attempt to do.

i rather doubt that anyone that does own one would give a truthful answer either, because all the reviews lean towards getting straight up ripped off on the real world range.
If I could afford $8K+ for a second bike right now, I'd have one for a commuter bike and keep the Bandit for anything over 30 miles. Its simply just not in the budget right now.

My commute is 3-6 miles depending on if I'm dropping a kid off at school, so range wouldn't be an issue. I could even take the "long way home".
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cat0020 View Post
I'm still waiting for the 100 mph capable, 200 mi. range per charge, 30 minute charge time, enough underseat storage for 2 fullface helmets, all under 450 lb. & $5k.
Silly "requests" like these are part of why alternative energy vehicles don't work and/or are not understood.

Making some basic assumptions (200 mile range, 100 mpg equivilant, 34 MJ/l energy density of gasoline), charging an appropriately sized battery in 30 minutes with 110 volt power requires a current of 1300 amps.

You realize that's absolutely insane, right?

Even going to 480V power requires 300 amps. This is still VERY industrial strength stuff. This is something like half the power capacity I have at work, in a building that supports 30 people, 5 machining centers, welders, climate control, etc.

If you're going to pull random numbers that you want out of your butt, you might have to wait a while for them to come true.

There simply isn't a way, with current (or near horizon) technology, to offer an electric vehicle with reasonable range and reasonable charge times. It's a physical impossiblity. Hopefully technology will change this in the future, but it's not coming in the next 5 years, that's for sure.

This is why people who know nothing about technology (ie everybody in Washington and most normal people) shouldn't be setting vehicle/energy/fuel policy.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:12 PM   #48
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Current (no pun intended) batteries are completely insufficient for petrol heads, as been already stated very few people understand the science, math or physics of electricity (product or consumption). As we move away from technology like Lithium Ion batters designed to act more like capacitors we will develop capacitors that behave more like batteries. Emerging technologies will make production of electric bikes more realistic and closer to our expectations. Enter Nano Supercapacitors One step closer. If you look at the development time of the motorcycle internal combustion engine and the current development time of the electric systems for motorcycles eventually the gap between the two will converge.

Some day we may redefine the name
Motorcycle = having electric motor
Enginecycle = internal combustion engine
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:54 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
This is why people who know nothing about technology (ie everybody in Washington and most normal people) shouldn't be setting vehicle/energy/fuel policy.
Well, Lordy be! I'll second that!!!

I feel that same thought would also apply to setting environmental policy (in general), exhaust emission, vehicle fuel efficiency, etc. etc. standards. The ridiculous requirements placed on auto manufacturers (for example, but probably applies to motorcycles too) result in over-priced, overly-complicated products that are difficult and expensive to maintain, troubleshoot, and repair.

Venting partially done............

Lynn
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:49 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
Silly "requests" like these are part of why alternative energy vehicles don't work and/or are not understood.

Making some basic assumptions (200 mile range, 100 mpg equivilant, 34 MJ/l energy density of gasoline), charging an appropriately sized battery in 30 minutes with 110 volt power requires a current of 1300 amps.

You realize that's absolutely insane, right?

Even going to 480V power requires 300 amps. This is still VERY industrial strength stuff. This is something like half the power capacity I have at work, in a building that supports 30 people, 5 machining centers, welders, climate control, etc.

If you're going to pull random numbers that you want out of your butt, you might have to wait a while for them to come true.

There simply isn't a way, with current (or near horizon) technology, to offer an electric vehicle with reasonable range and reasonable charge times. It's a physical impossiblity. Hopefully technology will change this in the future, but it's not coming in the next 5 years, that's for sure.

This is why people who know nothing about technology (ie everybody in Washington and most normal people) shouldn't be setting vehicle/energy/fuel policy.

Great points. Running a 240V power would be 600 amps... Most houses have 100 amp services, 200 in big new houses if I recall. So you'd need massive powercable upgrades to wiring -- six-times what most houses already have -- to allow for a fast charger. Kinda puts things in perspective.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:39 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cakeeater View Post
Great points. Running a 240V power would be 600 amps... Most houses have 100 amp services, 200 in big new houses if I recall. So you'd need massive powercable upgrades to wiring -- six-times what most houses already have -- to allow for a fast charger. Kinda puts things in perspective.
If I recall, most houses (built after J. Edgar Hoover died) actually have 220v (or 240v?) coming in, split for our USA stuff. Cause when I had to put in a 220 (240?) outlet for a welder, the power was already avail at the box. Most modern homes have 400amps avail, if not in use. Which may be enough. So, we can all plug in our e-bikes in So. Cal and freely pollute in Arizona and Utah (where their oil-power plants feed us).
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by scrannel View Post
If I recall, most houses (built after J. Edgar Hoover died) actually have 220v (or 240v?) coming in, split for our USA stuff. Cause when I had to put in a 220 (240?) outlet for a welder, the power was already avail at the box. Most modern homes have 400amps avail, if not in use. Which may be enough. So, we can all plug in our e-bikes in So. Cal and freely pollute in Arizona and Utah (where their oil-power plants feed us).
Homes are generally fed with 240 V 2-phase power. By connecting either of the phases to ground, you get the 120V single phase that most of our day-to-day appliances run off of.

In any case, 200 amps is NOT enough to get even close to the charge times some folks are pipe dreaming about. More to the point, these facts about the power grid make it impossible, within the laws of physics, to have electric cars with both a reasonable range and reasonable charge time.

The only hope for electric vehicles is to get them to have sufficient range for a daily commute, and charge fast enough to be back up overnight. This is possible, but it's near the limit if you do the math out. It can't, and won't, get much better than this, until we start building dedicated charge stations that use 480+V, and rewire homes across the country to allow for fast home charging (this would be a HUGE cost).

But, of course, people don't care about facts like these, and will continue to talk like a few more years of development will magically solve these problems.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:29 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
Homes are generally fed with 240 V 2-phase power. By connecting either of the phases to ground, you get the 120V single phase that most of our day-to-day appliances run off of.

In any case, 200 amps is NOT enough to get even close to the charge times some folks are pipe dreaming about. More to the point, these facts about the power grid make it impossible, within the laws of physics, to have electric cars with both a reasonable range and reasonable charge time.

The only hope for electric vehicles is to get them to have sufficient range for a daily commute, and charge fast enough to be back up overnight. This is possible, but it's near the limit if you do the math out. It can't, and won't, get much better than this, until we start building dedicated charge stations that use 480+V, and rewire homes across the country to allow for fast home charging (this would be a HUGE cost).

But, of course, people don't care about facts like these, and will continue to talk like a few more years of development will magically solve these problems.

Great point. I talked to the owner of a Chevy Volt. Twelve hour recharge on 120v. Get's 30-40 miles range, which for him is what he wants, so he likes the car a lot. And he's rich, so price isn't an issue. Six hour recharge if he were to install a 240v charging station at his house. So that's four miles of range for a long lunchbreak...IF the place had a monster 240 cable hookup. Or two miles range at 120v.

Yeah, the physics are right there...and I can't imagine California's already mediocre electric grid dealing with tens of thousands of vehicles drawing 200 amps everytime they're parked.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrannel View Post
Most modern homes have 400amps avail, if not in use. Which may be enough. So, we can all plug in our e-bikes in So. Cal and freely pollute in Arizona and Utah (where their oil-power plants feed us).
Wrong.

Pepole that aren't rich beyond belief (the 99%) have 100A, MAYBE 200A service.

Believe it or not, most Americans don't have 6-car garages and their sub-urban housing sits on less than an acre.
CA only buys power from clean plants. SRP had to close one of their plants in NV because of this--didn't make economic sense to upgrade it. Lots of Hopi lost their jobs. Oh well. Good-paying, steady jobs grow on trees in the rez.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:30 AM   #55
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ebikes from honda and bmw

honda has already displayed their ebike prototype . it looks a little like a cafe racer . bmw is rumored to be building an ebike . brammo zero and volta ebikes are already on the market . when one of the big boys - honda or bmw - starts selling an electric powered motorcycle as part of their real model lineup then these vehicles will have truly arrived . i get the feeling the day that honda or bmw begins putting ebikes on the dealers' showroom floor is less than two years off . if we can count electric scooters ( which are a more european thing ) these little machines are already on the roads . but if you only consider ebikes in terms of being an electric powered motorcycle then all it would take is for one of the big brand manufacturers to start selling them and people will finally feel that an ebike is a legitimate mode of transportation regardless of their price and range and charge time .
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by AZbiker View Post
Wrong.

Pepole that aren't rich beyond belief (the 99%) have 100A, MAYBE 200A service.

Believe it or not, most Americans don't have 6-car garages and their sub-urban housing sits on less than an acre.
CA only buys power from clean plants. SRP had to close one of their plants in NV because of this--didn't make economic sense to upgrade it. Lots of Hopi lost their jobs. Oh well. Good-paying, steady jobs grow on trees in the rez.
CA buys from clean power sources? 40% for LA comes from coal fired plants (http://www.scpr.org/blogs/environmen...ond-coal-2020/)

"California leads the Nation in electricity generation from nonhydroelectric renewable energy sources, including geothermal power, wind power, fuel wood, landfill gas, and solar power. California is also a leading generator of hydroelectric power."

BUT

"California imports more electricity from other States than any other State." (http://205.254.135.7/state/state-ene...les.cfm?sid=CA)


All US homes since the 1950s have 240v incoming, split to 120v. (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_t...d_runs_at_240V)

Almost all US homes now have 200amp ability -- my house was built in 1978 and came with that capacity.

Nissan Leaf "charger specifications call for "220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit"

400 amps are not needed for a home charging station: (http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...-home-chargers)

And...


"Unlike the charging station for the 2011 Nissan Leaf, the Ford charging station won't be a permanent home installation; it plugs into a 240-volt drier-style outlet and can be removed when needed—such as when the owner moves. Ford has said that with the 240-volt, charging system, permitting the system's 32-amp maximum capability, the Focus Electric will charge fully in as little as three to four hours—about half the time of the Nissan Leaf. That comes thanks to the 6.6-kW on-board charger. The price for the home charger, at $1,499 with a standard installation, is also substantially less than that of the Nissan Leaf."
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:19 AM   #57
AZbiker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrannel View Post
CA buys from clean power sources? 40% for LA comes from coal fired plants (http://www.scpr.org/blogs/environmen...ond-coal-2020/)

"California leads the Nation in electricity generation from nonhydroelectric renewable energy sources, including geothermal power, wind power, fuel wood, landfill gas, and solar power. California is also a leading generator of hydroelectric power."

BUT

"California imports more electricity from other States than any other State." (http://205.254.135.7/state/state-ene...les.cfm?sid=CA)


All US homes since the 1950s have 240v incoming, split to 120v. (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_t...d_runs_at_240V)

Almost all US homes now have 200amp ability -- my house was built in 1978 and came with that capacity.

Nissan Leaf "charger specifications call for "220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit"

400 amps are not needed for a home charging station: (http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...-home-chargers)

And...


"Unlike the charging station for the 2011 Nissan Leaf, the Ford charging station won't be a permanent home installation; it plugs into a 240-volt drier-style outlet and can be removed when needed—such as when the owner moves. Ford has said that with the 240-volt, charging system, permitting the system's 32-amp maximum capability, the Focus Electric will charge fully in as little as three to four hours—about half the time of the Nissan Leaf. That comes thanks to the 6.6-kW on-board charger. The price for the home charger, at $1,499 with a standard installation, is also substantially less than that of the Nissan Leaf."
...so I guess SCE just fucked the Hopis in the ass for general sport and enjoyment, since the Mojave plant wasn't even located in CA.

That's pretty sweet.

Most of the homes in central Phoenix are running on 100A services, but not in the neighborhoods you'd find yourself in if you visited.

Costs about $5,000 to upgrade to a 200A service, I looked into it back when I owned my own home, which was a 100A service installed in 1992. Home was built in 1935.

To somebody making $10-12/hr, that's a shitload of money.
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