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Old 04-15-2012, 07:56 PM   #331
Geografo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk View Post
And, Sir, the consequences of the two is on a different scale.
If I were in your position (well, I am, actually) I would worry substantially more about being killed or injured than about a bearing failing.

My experiences, by the way, is that on the 1150, the left-hand side indicator switch fails much more frequent that the FD.
I don't worry about that either.

[TaSK]
Tagesk,

Point taken. I did not mean it to read that I do not worry at all about being killed or injured. I am constantly doing whatever is in my power to prevent such a thing from happening. Unfortunately, sometimes that is not enough. So, while I do not want to be killed in such a manner, I do not let it keep me from riding and enjoying it (frankly, I am more worried about what may happen to my s.o. when riding two-up, since I can account for what I do and how I react to certain situations, but not her, and to have something serious happen to her would be personally devastating for me). That said, I have learned to put such things as FD failures well down the list of things to worry about when I suit up and ride, for the very reasons mentioned in my last post, and in this one.

Btw--I generally enjoy reading your well thought-out posts. So keep em comin'
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1972 Yamaha 60 Mini-Enduro
1971 Yamaha 125 Enduro
1974 Suzuki GT 750 "Water Buffalo"--like a true water buffalo, big and heavy, but deceptively fast
2006 Harley-Davidson XL 883 (traded-in on Corolla...)
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:57 PM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandalazu View Post
Yes, well... My 2007 GS slowly ground the final drive away on the way back to Ohio from Alaska in June of 2009. Julius at Gina's BMW saved me, though I got cussed for riding 700 miles that day on shredded gears (in the absolute worst rain I've ever ridden in, up hill both ways). "I maybe coulda saved it!" Again, yes, well. The clock read 26K and BMW replaced it. (Sidebar: BMW Roadside had "no recollection" of my current membership when I called them for help from Altoona, IA. So BMW ended up picking up the tab for three days of R&R in beautiful Iowa City.) I left there with a strict admonition to change the drive oil after 600miles, then every 12K, which I have done (in no little fear of recurrence).

Fast forward to tonight. I thought it had been feeling a little "crunchy" these past couple months and, due to the winter weather, haven't put many miles on it, making a mental note to get it to service before doing any serious spring riding. The clock now reads 50.7K and tonight, on my way to an evening activity in this unexpected spring-like weather, the bike actually wobbled. After ten or so miles, I found good light, crawled under it, and experienced that same gut-wrenching feeling when I saw drive oil covering the back wheel. I limped it home at 2500rpm in third and will be calling the good people at Holt BMW (180 miles from my garage) in the morning for advice and, most likely, an appointment. All I see when I close my eyes is $$$$$$$$$$ signs.

Twice? REALLY?!
I'm about to do my second roller bearing in FD on my 07 GSA..... 1st was under warranty...... 54k now, I pay da bill
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:15 PM   #333
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Now, I would like to add, the roller bearing in the EVO Hex-head and on, is a sealed bearing, not bathed in gear oil as the previous FD's were. When BMW replaced the first bad roller bearing, the FD fluid and everything inside, checked out fine... I learned that BMW outsourced the roller bearing then, sometime in 07, realized they needed a better bearing.... well, I'm about to do another one, I hope..... we'll see what I find when I open her up!
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:08 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill 310 View Post
Well there is nothing like a little investigation in an election year.

I posted the note from Chris on our local Sport bike forum and added these two factoids

This is really good news for BMW owners. I have had rear drive failures on my 2001 GS, 2003 GS Adv and my 2008 K1200GT. My LT was written off before it had a chance to fail................



Limited summary:

- BMW uses two different final drive systems: the older Paralever design, which is still used on the K1200LT, and the 2nd-generation "EVO" Paralever, introduced in 2004 and, used on most current bikes. EVO design is easily identified by the 50mm hole in the rear axle.
- From 1980 to 2000, BMW final drive failures were rare
- Starting in 2001 an increasing number of final drive failures started appearing on K1200LT and R1150GS models
- Most of those were on 1st generation Paralever bikes, although some were on EVO Paralever bikes.
- Of 38 Paralever-equipped BMWs in the 2007 Iron Butt Rally, 14 were R1200 EVO models. Of these four didn't finish due to final drive failure -- a 29% failure rate.
- In Sept 2006 BMW revised the service recommendation for final drives to include final drive oil change at the 600-mi service (previously was considered lifetime lubricated).
- In 2007 BMW increased the size of the pinion gear needle bearing on EVO Paralevers, and added a magnetic drain plug.
- BMW didn't publicize but extended the final drive warranty to five years on bikes sold after January 2007
- Owners can check final drive status by putting bike on center stand, grabbing back wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock positions and rocking back and forth. Repeat at 3 and 9 o'clock positions. On EVO bikes up to 1 mm of play measured at the wheel rim is considered normal. More is abnormal and might indicate an impending problem
- A better inspection inspection method is draining final drive oil and inspecting magnetic plug for metallic particles. If any uncertainty, the final drive must be removed and gears/bearings inspected and gear lash measured
- A survey on the BMW LT forum resulted in 174 reported final drive failures
- A separate survey resulted in 80 people reporting failures, of which 11 were EVO Paralevers
- So far no reported crashes resulting from final drive failures
I am not real knowledgeable about the mechanics of the subject. I have a 2001 1150GS which I have owned for about three years. I know nothing about the previous history of the bike. After one year in my ownership the dealer told me that my bike had metal flakes in my final drive fluid and he replaced the bearing. Yesterday, Max BMW informed me of the same thing and replaced the final drive bearing. The time between near failures was 1 year, 10 months. I mean, how can this be? Besides design flaws, are there any contributory factors in how the bike is ridden?

Last year at the BMWRA rally I met a rider with exactly the same bike as mine. A few years before, I am not exactly sure when, he told me he was in a bad single vehicle motorcycle accident where the cause of the accident was that his rear wheel came off his bike for no apparent reason. Is this the type of incident that would be possibly caused by a catastrophic final drive failure?
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:25 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin III View Post
I am not real knowledgeable about the mechanics of the subject. I have a 2001 1150GS which I have owned for about three years. I know nothing about the previous history of the bike. After one year in my ownership the dealer told me that my bike had metal flakes in my final drive fluid and he replaced the bearing. Yesterday, Max BMW informed me of the same thing and replaced the final drive bearing. The time between near failures was 1 year, 10 months. I mean, how can this be? Besides design flaws, are there any contributory factors in how the bike is ridden?

Last year at the BMWRA rally I met a rider with exactly the same bike as mine. A few years before, I am not exactly sure when, he told me he was in a bad single vehicle motorcycle accident where the cause of the accident was that his rear wheel came off his bike for no apparent reason. Is this the type of incident that would be possibly caused by a catastrophic final drive failure?
Read the whole thread, then you decide.

There are multiple reasons for FD failures, and especially one following the other like yours. The original failure could be from poor initial assembly, overlaoding the bike, riding in very rough conditions, while overloaded, and getting water in the Fd through streem corssings. Or, it could simply be a defective FD from the start.

As for a FD actually falling off, not unless the owner was so out of tune with the bike that he never noticed major self destruction impending. They do not simply grenade with no warning.

Jim
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:52 AM   #336
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Question I hate reading about this stuff right after I buy a 2012 R1200GS!


Just picked up a 2012 R1200GS. Where do new BMW GS's stand in this thread's light?
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:55 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undermoose View Post

Just picked up a 2012 R1200GS. Where do new BMW GS's stand in this thread's light?

Dude you're screwed....Better turn it back in
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:26 PM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownsr View Post
Dude you're screwed....Better turn it back in

But really, are the new final drives improved or are we still potentially hit by this issue?


(Yes I'm a R1200GS noob)

Thanks!
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:55 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undermoose View Post

But really, are the new final drives improved or are we still potentially hit by this issue?


(Yes I'm a R1200GS noob)

Thanks!
Don't ask.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:58 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undermoose View Post

Just picked up a 2012 R1200GS. Where do new BMW GS's stand in this thread's light?
Don't let the fear of a small chance of an issue let your ruin your enjoyment of your bike. Go ride!

Jim
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:23 PM   #341
tagesk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undermoose View Post
But really, are the new final drives improved or are we still potentially hit by this issue?
Yes, the 12GS has a much improved FD (with the hole in the middle) compared to the 11xx model.

[TaSK]
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:40 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Read the whole thread, then you decide.

There are multiple reasons for FD failures, and especially one following the other like yours. The original failure could be from poor initial assembly, overlaoding the bike, riding in very rough conditions, while overloaded, and getting water in the Fd through streem corssings. Or, it could simply be a defective FD from the start.

As for a FD actually falling off, not unless the owner was so out of tune with the bike that he never noticed major self destruction impending. They do not simply grenade with no warning.

Jim
Besides looseness of the wheel, vibration, and shavings in the final drive fluid, what other signs are there. The service manager, who is very knowledgeable, guesses that the oil overheats and doesn't do it's job. I have touched the final drive many times after a ride and the case has never seemed hot.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:10 PM   #343
tagesk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin III View Post
The service manager, who is very knowledgeable, guesses that the oil overheats and doesn't do it's job. I have touched the final drive many times after a ride and the case has never seemed hot.
The loss of energy in a 90 turn is about 3-5% of the effect passing through.
That is, if you run your bike at about 200 km/h about 100 HP passes through the FD.
100HP is about 80 KW.
So, at full power, you can expect a few KW (let us say 5) of heat to be generated down there.

5KW will boil 180 ml of oil in seconds.

However, this is the full-power situation.
Regardless of hard you ride your bike, the full-power situation is a few seconds at the time.

Furthermore, the heat occur on the surface of the shafts.
They have good cooling.
One end connect to the hub of the wheel, the other to the shaft that passes up though the swing arm, all bearings are attached tot eh housing.
Finally, quite some air passes by and keeps the house cool.

I have tried it.
After a 10 km run in 180 km/h (my 1150 didn't go faster), the FD was hot to touch but not at all boiling. I could touch it, but not let my hand rest on it.

Obviously, reducing the volume from 220 to 180 (on the 12GS) didn't help on cooling.
But when we talk 5KW, volumes that small without external cooling can hardly play any significant role in any case.

[TaSK]
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:32 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk View Post
Yes, the 12GS has a much improved FD (with the hole in the middle) compared to the 11xx model.

[TaSK]
I dunno about that.. it seems to me a lot of the "FD failures" posted here are nothing more than a leaky seal from the middle hole. Was the hole form over function? One thing's certain, BMW got rid of the hole on the K1600. It remains to be seen when the watercooled boxer comes out if the FD has the hole or they do away with it. I'd be in favor of one less seal to leak, and many fewer of the sky is falling / my FD is leaking threads
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Old 06-13-2012, 06:13 PM   #345
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Two Different Topics

Quote:
Originally Posted by GB View Post
I dunno about that.. it seems to me a lot of the "FD failures" posted here are nothing more than a leaky seal from the middle hole. Was the hole form over function? One thing's certain, BMW got rid of the hole on the K1600. It remains to be seen when the watercooled boxer comes out if the FD has the hole or they do away with it. I'd be in favor of one less seal to leak, and many fewer of the sky is falling / my FD is leaking threads

I know, I know this has been discussed ad naseum but while a seal leak may lead to bearing/race failure if enough lube is lost and then a true "FD failure" might occur, a seal leak alone does not constitute a FD failure....yes, many have reported seal leaks but many have reported "stop right there" FD failures within the FD without seal leaks.

Nothing will ever be gained by our endless posted speculations about 180 vs 220 ml or sub-standard bearings or incorrect lash/set-up or wrong lube [whatever in the hell that is] or overloaded [?] and mistreated bikes [that must be a joke] being the cause of the true FD failures.

ONLY BMW can answer why FDs have failed over the years and continue to fail....but guess what boys and girls...BMW refuses to divulge the extent of the problem or the cause of the problem [s].

True story. I had a call yesterday from BMW NA Customer Service, they called me! An inmate had forewarded a PM email I sent him to BMW Motorrad. Motorrad in turn kick the letter to BMW NA. I had a great chat with the Customer Service Rep and asked him if BMW had ever released any information concerning the FD failure or if they were ever likely to do so....No nothing had been released and nothing could be expected. Why I asked. He said he honestly did not know and in essence that was above his pay grade. Oh yes, I asked if he owned a BMW...no, he owned two Yamahas.

Hence, why I call BMW the "Black Hole of Information"; it goes in but never comes out.

What waste of time...if we had the data we could make informed decisions. But then we might not buy BMWs. I would never again buy any BMW product, not because I don't love the performance of my '07 GSA but I do not trust the company and by extension the reliability of their bikes.
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Wallowa screwed with this post 06-13-2012 at 06:20 PM
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