When did we stop appreciating...

[milkfiend]

I would absolutely love a modern motorcycle movement that embraced the ideas of the old classics - simple, easy to work on, easy to maintain, cheap to run. A GS500E pretty much ticks all of those boxes, but I don't really know of much else. On my new (to me) YZF600R you have to pull the tank to change the spark plugs

edit: comfortable, too! basically I'm looking for a modern, simple, naked standard that won't break the bank.

[perterra]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

Of course. On these bad old bikes, it's much easier to get yourself killed.


Engine, suspension, frame, brakes, aerodynamics, ergonomics, reliability, assistance systems - in short: Everything is better.

Hell yeah, this 02


has better suspension, brakes, aerodynamics and engine than the old CB750, your right, in short everything is better. Except it doesnt brake as well, isnt as quick, shakes more and doesnt go around corners as well.

[conchscooter]

I started riding in 1970 and have ridden ever since. I like modern reliability and even though I do understand mechanics I dislike wrenching and always have. Other than oil changes, tappet clearances and final drive chain tensioning I'd rather pay to get work done. That said I understand diagnosis to a degree (spark versus fuel failure, for instance) but in a modern world filled with specialization mechanics are valuable players in my opinion.

Breaking down is always played as a terrible thing by people planning tours. I have ridden all over the world and as long as I am not riding to a schedule (ie: commuting!) and I don't get hurt in the breakdown, breaking a part brings out the adventurer in the good rider. If you are stranded and unable to help yourself and keep your cool you are failing. Your attitude is the reflection of your maturity. However in my efforts to avoid stranding I do, or pay to have done, my preventattive maintenance. Knowing your mechanic is the next best thing to doing it yourself. I have been stranded in Africa, in Europe and the US and from each mechanical failure I have learned about myself and others, made friends and taken away some great stories. Death was never an option, even in Nigeria. Though I did have to wrench and get my hands greasy. Ugh!!

I really enjoyed the original post as it posed lots of significant questions and begged an interesting debate. I also enjoyed the rather defensive replies brought out by that post, the nature of which you can go back and read for yourself. I don't justify my choices to anyone except my riding partner when she comes along. If my New Bonneville is overweight underpowered and poorly suspended, that's okay because I love the way it looks, I enjoy the ride and it makes me smile a great deal. That I use a windshield, rode two iron butts on the factory saddle and have uglified a lovely bike with luggage is part of my belief that I answer to myself alone.

.

I miss my kick start bikes from the 1970s even though they did require more maintenance. They started when I needed them to and they got me where I was going while I was wearing pathetically feeble gear. I had lots of fun. Now I am still having fun, without GPS or earphones or ear plugs but with modern synthetic gear. I don't like music while i ride and i prefer the serendipity of no GPS for my journeys. But that's my choice- I loved GPS when I was out traveling by sailboat! Aerostich offers a waxed cotton jacket for purists. Not me! I hated waxed cotton but wore it because it was the best waterproofing at the time (and my pals wore it too...and we all know about peer pressure!) but nowadays I wear modern plastic stuff with armor. Lovely!

I guess what I am saying is I enjoy the debate but I know my own mind. I will take what I like and leave what I don't but I do enjoy modern OPTIONS. Just like life, riding is a matter of making wise choices that work for you. Please note though, that with twice as many humans on the planet today compared to when I was born 54 years ago, there has to be some acceptance that roads are more crowded and thus more dangerous inherently because of the volume of traffic.






My plan for retirement is to seek out places with fewer people and more of the untraveled roads of my youth. Roanoke, Virginia seems to fit the bill. Hmm... I wonder if my POS Bonneville will need better suspension for those winding mountain roads?

[Thanantos]

Originally Posted by conchscooter

I started riding in 1970 and have ridden ever since. I like modern reliability and even though I do understand mechanics I dislike wrenching and always have. Other than oil changes, tappet clearances and final drive chain tensioning I'd rather pay to get work done. That said I understand diagnosis to a degree (spark versus fuel failure, for instance) but in a modern world filled with specialization mechanics are valuable players in my opinion.

Breaking down is always played as a terrible thing by people planning tours. I have ridden all over the world and as long as I am not riding to a schedule (ie: commuting!) and I don't get hurt in the breakdown, breaking a part brings out the adventurer in the good rider. If you are stranded and unable to help yourself and keep your cool you are failing. Your attitude is the reflection of your maturity. However in my efforts to avoid stranding I do, or pay to have done, my preventattive maintenance. Knowing your mechanic is the next best thing to doing it yourself. I have been stranded in Africa, in Europe and the US and from each mechanical failure I have learned about myself and others, made friends and taken away some great stories. Death was never an option, even in Nigeria. Though I did have to wrench and get my hands greasy. Ugh!!

I really enjoyed the original post as it posed lots of significant questions and begged an interesting debate. I also enjoyed the rather defensive replies brought out by that post, the nature of which you can go back and read for yourself. I don't justify my choices to anyone except my riding partner when she comes along. If my New Bonneville is overweight underpowered and poorly suspended, that's okay because I love the way it looks, I enjoy the ride and it makes me smile a great deal. That I use a windshield, rode two iron butts on the factory saddle and have uglified a lovely bike with luggage is part of my belief that I answer to myself alone.

.

I miss my kick start bikes from the 1970s even though they did require more maintenance. They started when I needed them to and they got me where I was going while I was wearing pathetically feeble gear. I had lots of fun. Now I am still having fun, without GPS or earphones or ear plugs but with modern synthetic gear. I don't like music while i ride and i prefer the serendipity of no GPS for my journeys. But that's my choice- I loved GPS when I was out traveling by sailboat! Aerostich offers a waxed cotton jacket for purists. Not me! I hated waxed cotton but wore it because it was the best waterproofing at the time (and my pals wore it too...and we all know about peer pressure!) but nowadays I wear modern plastic stuff with armor. Lovely!

I guess what I am saying is I enjoy the debate but I know my own mind. I will take what I like and leave what I don't but I do enjoy modern OPTIONS. Just like life, riding is a matter of making wise choices that work for you. Please note though, that with twice as many humans on the planet today compared to when I was born 54 years ago, there has to be some acceptance that roads are more crowded and thus more dangerous inherently because of the volume of traffic.






My plan for retirement is to seek out places with fewer people and more of the untraveled roads of my youth. Roanoke, Virginia seems to fit the bill. Hmm... I wonder if my POS Bonneville will need better suspension for those winding mountain roads?

Nicely done. +1.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by perterra

Hell yeah, this 02


has better suspension, brakes, aerodynamics and engine than the old CB750, your right, in short everything is better. Except it doesnt brake as well, isnt as quick, shakes more and doesnt go around corners as well.

Really? A CB750 standard compared to cruiser? Um, no, apples to oranges.

Jim

[perterra]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Really? A CB750 standard compared to cruiser? Um, no, apples to oranges.

Jim

New and old, so is a new cruiser so far ahead of say one of the first series of Yamaha XS650 special? I dont think so, I dont think the bottom line bike has had all the advantages applied to it the upper end bikes have, My GL1800 was pretty advanced for 04 and it was a long way ahead of plenty of earlier bikes, but the Aero is not high tech even though the same company made both. If you want the experience of riding older bikes, some cruisers fill the bill well.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by perterra

New and old, so is a new cruiser so far ahead of say one of the first series of Yamaha XS650 special? I dont think so, I dont think the bottom line bike has had all the advantages applied to it the upper end bikes have, My GL1800 was pretty advanced for 04 and it was a long way ahead of plenty of earlier bikes, but the Aero is not high tech even though the same company made both. If you want the experience of riding older bikes, some cruisers fill the bill well.

OK, so long as you aren't comparing handling and HP of a standard to the handling and HP of a cruiser. They are different animals, with different focus.

Jim

[lemieuxmc]

Originally Posted by perterra

New and old, so is a new cruiser so far ahead of say one of the first series of Yamaha XS650 special? I dont think so, I dont think the bottom line bike has had all the advantages applied to it the upper end bikes have, My GL1800 was pretty advanced for 04 and it was a long way ahead of plenty of earlier bikes, but the Aero is not high tech even though the same company made both. If you want the experience of riding older bikes, some cruisers fill the bill well.

Until you ride a well sorted Commando you really won't "get it".

I have a friend who I have known about thirty years who has a pre EFI Thruxton. He has done some mods to it and he feels that it is very nearly the perfect bike for him. He has been riding since 1966, has had LOTS of bikes, done his share of racing, and lost friends in road accidents while riding. The new Triumphs are one of the few bikes that have the potential, there was the Ducati Classic line, the new Guzzi V7, and the Enfield or the Ural for those who really don't care about speed. The Yamaha SR500 was a classic and they still sell lots of 400 and 600 singles in the far East.

People still listen to Sinatra, Elvis, Dylan and Springsteen... Wham and Millie Vanillie, not so much!

[perterra]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

Until you ride a well sorted Commando you really won't "get it".

I have a friend who I have known about thirty years who has a pre EFI Thruxton. He has done some mods to it and he feels that it is very nearly the perfect bike for him. He has been riding since 1966, has had LOTS of bikes, done his share of racing, and lost friends in road accidents while riding. The new Triumphs are one of the few bikes that have the potential, there was the Ducati Classic line, the new Guzzi V7, and the Enfield or the Ural for those who really don't care about speed. The Yamaha SR500 was a classic and they still sell lots of 400 and 600 singles in the far East.

People still listen to Sinatra, Elvis, Dylan and Springsteen... Wham and Millie Vanillie, not so much!

I'm a TR6C guy myself. I liked Nortons but the only one I knew of in school spent more time broken than running, only thing in the parking lot worse was a Victor Special 441. But they were sweet sounding and looked badass. Still give me a single carb trophy.

I think if you want to experience what riding an early HD duo was all about, your not far off with a road king today for the feel.

[rivercreep]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

So it's completely ok if I find the concept, of thinking someone stopped appreciating motorcycling because he doesn't agree with some other ones about what motorcycling is about, stupid?

ABSOLUTELY!

...and the best part of threads with all of these varied opinions (when they remain civil) is that we get to think more about what makes motorcycling what it is for others and sometimes it can change our perspective a little. And as an added bonus, we get to know each other a little better.

As an aside, I can appreciate the performance of a modern GSXR750 and all of it's technology for what it is while also appreciating a Ural with WW II "technology" for what it is. (could these 2 bikes be any more different?)
F.W.I.W. If I came into $ tomorrow, you'd find me at the Ural dealer first as what it's designed for fits my needs/desires better.

Now, lets say my Brother buys the GSXR 750 (keeping in mind I appreciate it's technology for what it is) and then he starts bitching about its lack of comfort, can't drive it when it snows, it has no place to plug in his GPS and lacks weather protection....THEN I think it's ok for me to think he's NOT appreciating motorcycling (when the bike fits its designed purpose) and I'll call him a whiney little pussy.

...perhaps guys reading this thread who didn't really understand what my rant is about will after reading the example above.

Not once (I don't think) have I tried to define WHAT motorcycling is about (because I KNOW it represents many different things to many people)...just a few examples of WHY I think some guys around here have stopped appreciating it. (from my perspective, based on observations from other threads)

I'd ask if I'm making sense but, I'm afraid of the replies.

[Wraith Rider]

Originally Posted by rivercreep

I'd ask if I'm making sense but, I'm afraid of the replies.

Chrchr. I think I now understand... I would have named the thread: "Why do some guys buy bikes that don't fit their needs?" Maybe your title is a bit missleading.

[rivercreep]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

Chrchr. I think I now understand... I would have named the thread: "Why do some guys buy bikes that don't fit their needs?" Maybe your title is a bit missleading.

Posting B.C. (before coffee) will do that almost every time.

On the + side = it generated lots of feedback.

If given to analytical thought, the title still fits somewhat because, those who buy a particular make/model usually do so because it represents what they're looking for in regards to what they appreciate about motorcycling. (yeah I know...I'm reaching)

[Wuwei]

My plan for retirement is to seek out places with fewer people and more of the untraveled roads of my youth. Roanoke, Virginia seems to fit the bill. Hmm... I wonder if my POS Bonneville will need better suspension for those winding mountain roads?

Still plenty of places like that in the USA. Hamilton County in the Adirondacks is the least populated county east of the Mississippi, with less than 5000 people spread out over 1800 square miles. There are a lot of places in the NE where you can get away from most of the traffic. I agree with the gist of your post--choose the ride and equipment that suits you, and don't worry about what others think or ride.

[thumpty dumpty]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

There is a big difference between change and improvement.

A motorcycle is fundamentally a simple device, if it is built with good design principles and quality materials, it will give a long and reliable service life with easy repairs if necessary.

Very few motorcycles made today represent much of an "improvement" over the level of a late '70s Honda or BMW. Yeah I know they are a lot faster (at speeds you don't ride), handle better (at levels most people won't appreciate), and are much more complicated (so it's harder to work on and get parts for).

Why do you think Harley is doing well? They know what a Harley should look, ride, and sound like, and they are working at fixing the things that piss of Harley owners and providing more of the accessories that Harley owners want to BUY!

Well said.

Originally Posted by Wuwei

According to this article and many others our reliance on GPS navigation is causing us to lose our inner sense of direction. I suppose that is OK if the GPS is working and you can follow it, but I find that I just don't need it most of the time. I can look at a map and usually ride for an hour or more without having to refer to it again, and there is something to be said for a little bit of getting lost--more adventure and you can find new places that way. It's fun to figure out which way to turn just by reading the terrain, looking at the sun, noting the wind direction, etc.

I've found a few places I would've liked to have GPS...alone and in the mountains, on unmarked trails. But, a topo map and a compass would've been just as handy.

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Quote:


I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Even if you look purely at basic MC features like forks, brakes, motos and gearboxes, today's bike are far more competant and reliable, and the majority of riders can take advantage of those features. If a bike handles and stops faster and better, then even beginner riders will ride better and safer! IMHO.
Jim

Forks and shocks haven't changed operation in 20 years, and haven't changed much in 40. Brakes work. They worked 30 years ago. The only change that has improved disc brakes in the last 25 years has been tire technology. Put some good rubber on a Honda 110 and it'll do a somersault with a drum brake. Motors? My '87 Fazer runs like a top, hasn't "needed" much work, and has been old enough to vote for quite some time. Gearboxes...really? They work well. They have for some time.

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

i don't ride street bikes enough to know about them, but in the world of dirt bikes, that statement is not even remotely close to true.

for one thing, late 70s bikes might as well have had no suspension at all compared to today's bikes. they also weighed a lot more. the brakes absolutely sucked compared to today's bikes...as did the ergonomics.

the difference is huge for pretty much any rider of any level.

When comparing dirt bikes, I totally agree that the suspension is worlds better. My first big transition was from a '74 Kawasaki to an '85 KTM, and coming down from any height changed from a cringe to near orgasm (in comparison). I'm gonna disagree on the brakes. Better? Yes. Loads better? Not so much. See above about stoppies on a Honda Trail. Weight - I don't know about the '70's, but I do know an '85 CR125 weighs less than an '07.

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

No 30 year old bike can touch a modern bike in performance, handling and braking without a lot of work. Exceptions exist though, the modern retro Triumphs, Guzzies and KLRs pretty much are not significantly better then 20+ year old versions of themselves.

Jim

How about 25 years old? I assume new fork seals, fresh pads, and a tune-up aren't "a lot of work?"

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

but the real comparison is the same rider on both bikes. in that case, that rider will be significantly better on an XR400 than on anything made in the 70s (or even 80s)...and he won't have to work on it as much.

Quit lobbing softballs.

rivercreep, I get where you're coming from. Seems some things get beaten to death. It's the information age, and we probable spend too much time in it. I fear that some of the "advancements" are actually taking away from the bikes. I like a little comfort on longer rides. I'm a windshield fan. I also like that when I ride without one down the highway, I'm working my core, and can skip a workout when I get home! I've always gotten the impression that most cagers go from point A to point B with as little mental effort as possible. My hope is they don't. I also hope that most riders strive to improve their skills every time they get on their bike. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist. Seat too hard? Make your butt tougher. Braking poor? Squeeze harder. Shudders in a corner? Keep practicing. Reliability has been pretty dang great in bikes for the last 30+ years. It's pretty hard to denigrate anything with any authority. What's the best bike? The one you buy and ride. Maybe you're getting desensytized by spending too much time on the forum. There's still ton's of riders who love riding for its pure essence, they just don't spend much time posting.

I hope my long-winded beer-induced post didn't ruffle everyone's feathers, but I did want to point out that even though I seldom agree with rivercreep, his topic is quite interesting, and I felt on point. We seem to get lost looking at the trees, and totally miss the forest.

[Wraith Rider]

Originally Posted by thumpty dumpty

They worked 30 years ago.

Maybe they worked (sometimes), but they worked not well.