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Old 01-04-2012, 10:54 AM   #16
largemouthbass
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val. h. I have the same needs in design as you... light enough steering for the little women...some light touring 50 - 60 mph... and capable of handling the Black Dog Rally. Have you settled on a trail dimension what about shocks?

If I had to start building today I would extend the axle 2" reducing the trail to 2.2". And I am looking at shocks from early models of ATV's from around 1999 to 2004, these years seem to be smaller in overall diameter than newer ones. Wish I could actually be of some help to you but since I've started this "easy project" I feel I've got a lot more to learn than I thought. Some of my original ideas need a lot of tweaking. But I won't let ignorance get in my way
Thanks to all of you who have contributed your experiences and ideas.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:27 PM   #17
val. h. OP
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Originally Posted by largemouthbass View Post
val. h. I have the same needs in design as you... light enough steering for the little women...some light touring 50 - 60 mph... and capable of handling the Black Dog Rally. Have you settled on a trail dimension what about shocks?

If I had to start building today I would extend the axle 2" reducing the trail to 2.2". And I am looking at shocks from early models of ATV's from around 1999 to 2004, these years seem to be smaller in overall diameter than newer ones. Wish I could actually be of some help to you but since I've started this "easy project" I feel I've got a lot more to learn than I thought. Some of my original ideas need a lot of tweaking. But I won't let ignorance get in my way
Thanks to all of you who have contributed your experiences and ideas.
I have a cunning plan:

I will be keeping the front forks in place but adding a rocker arm that will run under the fork legs and place the spindle forward in the same manor as the LLs would. The rocker arm will extend behind the wheel and be linked to the bottom yoke (or there abouts) with two link arms.

This will do 3 essential things for me. 1, It will allow me to rais the hight of the front end. 2, It will give the bike greater suspension travel. 3, It will save me the search and extra cost of the replacement front shocks. I'm also looking into raising the rear and the sidecar suspension to keep things level and making best use of the increased ground clearence.

I've been thinking about this for some time and even thought that it was only me who had thought of it. I couldn't believe that no one else had tried it before. Just like Triumph tested the oval pistong thirty years before Honda got it to work. Then I found the attached photo (no not the amazing two drive BMW). Have a close look at the V-Max on the right. I've since been passed a few more examples in discussions off site, which has convinced me that this is worth a closer look.

Val.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:21 PM   #18
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:23 AM   #19
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Hmm, I'm a bit sceptical of using the brake and fender bosses to support the front wheel. Stresses and extra ware in the wrong places etc. Especialy as I intend taking the rig off road 'all be it very gental off road'. I've no intension of turning it into any sort of rally rig. I'm just going to give it a bit more ground clearence and a tiny bit extra front suspension travel.

The advantage of extra suspension travel and the fact that the forces from the front wheel will go where they where desined when using the original forks is I think an imoprtant consideration when doing something like this. Keeping it passive IMO keeps it reliable. My budget is small, I'm also interested in things that are not the norm. If I build full on LLs I will be forced to use cheap or very old, well used secondhand shocks. I recon the the forks as fitted will be better (cheaper to rebuild even) than anything else out there that I can buy within budjet.

Heres a better pic of what I intend to do. You can see that the lower rocker arm is supported directly on the original spindle point and that at the back of the arm the tie rods support the arm so that it moves up and down along the normal fork travel. Changing the shape of the rocker arm and the length of the tie rods will create an increase in spindle travel compared to the fork travel.


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val. h. screwed with this post 01-05-2012 at 03:40 AM
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by val. h. View Post
Hmm, I'm a bit sceptical of using the brake and fender bosses to support the front wheel ...

Heres a better pic of what I intend to do. You can see that the lower rocker arm is supported directly on the original spindle point and that at the back of the arm the tie rods support the arm so that it moves up and down along the normal fork travel. Changing the shape of the rocker arm and the length of the tie rods will create an increase in spindle travel compared to the fork travel.
At least in theory, some stronger springs could be necessary here, but I think you have a good plan. I also like the idea of hacking unconventionally on a tight budget and will now be taking a new look at my own forks with your plan in mind after the sun comes up!
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:04 AM   #21
val. h. OP
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Originally Posted by leejosepho View Post
At least in theory, some stronger springs could be necessary here, but I think you have a good plan. I also like the idea of hacking unconventionally on a tight budget and will now be taking a new look at my own forks with your plan in mind after the sun comes up!

My rig is ok for fork springs. It's got heavy duty progressives in the front which I think have some extra preload spacers installed. When I first got it I thought the forks where seized. They are infact just stiffly sprung, so no probs there.

The rear and the sidecar springs are a different matter entiery though. On the twisties it's quite possible to suffer from sea sikness


Val.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:24 AM   #22
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That's called a "schwabel", being put together from "schwinge" and "gabel" in German

( meaning "swingarm" and "fork" )
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:04 PM   #23
val. h. OP
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That's called a "schwabel", being put together from "schwinge" and "gabel" in German

( meaning "swingarm" and "fork" )
That's interesting. Glad to know it has a name 'Schwabel' sounds good too.


Val.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:50 AM   #24
leejosepho
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Originally Posted by val. h. View Post
... heavy duty progressives in the front which I think have some extra preload spacers installed ...
Ah, I had momentarily forgotten about those being in my own plan!
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:09 AM   #25
Marvin and towser
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I know this thread is quite old now but I wondered how Val was getting on? I also like the look of the modification you are thinking of.
I am new to all sidecars never mind steering geometry but wondered if it would not be easier to re-machine some yokes with a different angle for the forks? Does this do strange things when turning? why is it seemingly not favoured?
Thanks
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:20 PM   #26
val. h. OP
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Originally Posted by Marvin and towser View Post
I know this thread is quite old now but I wondered how Val was getting on? I also like the look of the modification you are thinking of.
I am new to all sidecars never mind steering geometry but wondered if it would not be easier to re-machine some yokes with a different angle for the forks? Does this do strange things when turning? why is it seemingly not favoured?
Thanks
Well I haven't stopped thinking about this mod. My main reason for not getting this done is simply time and money.

However my main plan has been kiaboshed. Whilst measuring up I discovered that to put the front wheel exactly where I want it (down 100mm and forward 40mm which would raise the ground clearence and reduce trail), the bolts/bearings that would need to go through the front wheel spindal clamps to mount the swing arm would foul the discs. The only way round this would be to machine the inner edge of the forks. Doing this presents another problem. Machining the inner edge of the forks would remove the inner clamp bolts. So not being blessed with the nesassary welding skills I have decided that I need to find an alternative design.

Over the last couple of months I've been soarcing reletive SH parts at the right price. Such as a set of upper and lower yokes from a K75 for 19. With these I can at least make up a set of traditional LLs, but I might yet go down the route of simply fitting a pair of off road forks the same size, though I'd like to keep the OE wheel, haven't decided just yet.

In the mean time we'll be moving house in a few weeks (going to hold up at my Dads for a while). Then in a couple of months (fingers crossed) we'll be relocating to the west coast of Wales, where the new house (fingers crossed the money man he say yes) has a massive workshop where I'll have plenty of space get stuck in to this project. Providing I manage to get the time of course.


Val.
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