Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

[DiabloADV]

Originally Posted by _cy_

new information surfacing..... Shorai batteries are not compatible with EnDuraLast aftermarket charging systems for Airheads. does anyone know why?

Did this question ever get answered?

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by DiabloADV

Did this question ever get answered?

you'll have to ask EnduroLast ...

[DiabloADV]

Originally Posted by _cy_

you'll have to ask EnduroLast ...

OK -- I asked Euromotoelectrics...

The answer is non-specific. They had one customer that installed an Endurlast charging system in a Ducati, while also installing a Shorai at the same time. The customer had problems, so Euromotoelectric won't warranty their system with anything but conventional batteries. So, there seems to be nothing specific...simply a preventative measure on the vendor's part. Which I can understand...

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by DiabloADV

OK -- I asked Euromotoelectrics...

The answer is non-specific. They had one customer that installed an Endurlast charging system in a Ducati, while also installing a Shorai at the same time. The customer had problems, so Euromotoelectric won't warranty their system with anything but conventional batteries. So, there seems to be nothing specific...simply a preventative measure on the vendor's part. Which I can understand...

correct me if I'm wrong... but here's the basics

all alternators rotates a magnet through or around the stator (HD). then uses a diode rectifier to convert the AC output to DC.

there's two different ways to generate the magnetic forces needed within a rotor. one type uses permanent magnets. other uses an electromagnet.

both types uses a voltage regulator. but they work entirely different. each has advantages and disadvantages.

permanent magnet alternators pretty much operate at full output all the time. excess current is shunted to ground in the form of heat. advantage is slightly higher efficiency. can still charge up battery in-spite of low RPM usage. disadvantage loss of HP generating excess current which ends up as heat. which can overheat area near voltage regulator.

electromagnet alternators varies the current delivered to the electromagnet rotor. voltage regulator works by changing current sent to electromagnetic rotor. disadvantage is this process uses 3-4 amps. output also varies with RPM. one could easily run down a battery if engine is not rev'd high enough. advantage is no wasted HP generating excess watts.

with all that out of the way... let's get to why I posted above..

what happens should a voltage regulator fail?

if a voltage regulator on electromagnet alternator should fail .. usual result is no output. very rarely does an internal short result in full output.

if a voltage regulator should fail on a permanent magnet alternator. output could continue at full output or fail altogether.

LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries are either not regulated and/or regulated at very low values after full charge is reached. this means failure of a voltage regulator on a permanent magnet is more likely to result in overcharging a LiFePO4 battery or any other battery to failure.

so if given a choice on Airheads of which high performance alternator to go with.... I'd pick the electromagnet alternator version every time. unfortunately on late model motorcycles you don't get a choice.

[JoelWisman]

Depending on priorities...

The only technical part I disagree with above is where the heat ends up.

There are 3 fairly different kinds of voltage regulator for PM alternators.

1: SCR shunt. This regulator contains diodes to rectify the AC on the back side and 1 to 3 SCRs to shunt excess current to ground. The diodes and SCRs do have some resistance and therefore do heat up when there is a significant excess charging capacity from the alternator, EG at high RPM with few electrical loads switched on. HOWEVER, the greatest resistance in the system is the stator and that is where the great majority of heat is created.

2: MOSFET shunt. This type of regulator is exactly the same as above except for the use of MOSFETs in place of the SCRs above. MOSFETS have extremely low resistance and very little switching heat so the only appreciable heat generated is from the rectifying diodes themselves. Note, a wound rotor alternator like an airhead has, has rectifying diodes as well.

3: series PM regulators. This type of regulator uses MOSFETs to switch the stator open to regulate voltage and creates no greater heat then a wound rotor alternator, but like a wound rotor alternator is not quite as efficient as a shunt regulated alternator owing to losses flowing in series through the MOSFETs



NOW, lets consider the components in each common system (series PMs are uncommon)


WOUND ROTOR ALTERNATORS like an airhead has.
1: a wound rotor that can and does fail.
2: sliprings to transmit power to the wound rotor. These wear out or can short.
3: 2 brushes both of which wear out and can also break or burn up or frequently melt their holders and jam.
4: Separate bearings for the rotor on many applications including some modern BMW's such as the R1200GS or K bikes. Oh yes these bearings fail.
5: A belt driving the alternator if separate which of course wears out and will break instantly if it picks up the right rock.
6: air cooling which can plug.
7: A stator which of course can fail.
8: A diode bridge to rectify the AC which can be reliable but if oe is most unreliable on BMW's
9: A voltage regulating circuit that controls current to the wound rotor.
10: A circuit to energize and de-energize the voltage regulating circuit.

Practical experience, I dealt with airheads that had a failure in some part of this charging system causing the bike to cease charging and strand the rider at least weekly which is significant considering there aren't a great deal of air heads on the road.


PM ALTERNATORS
1: A flywheel with permanent magnets that never breaks. It needn't be included in this list because in 24 years I have honestly never seen one fail.
2: A stator. Some are designed well, some aren't. The stator in the BMW F800GS fails regularly between 20k and 50k miles, but has since been redesigned. Most stators are VERY reliable with a few exceptions of poorly designed units.
3: A single component that does the rectification and voltage regulation and is nearly universally adaptable from one bike to the next if capacity is at all similar though there is nothing wrong with using one that has a higher capacity. It is usually the diodes that go and usually because battery terminals were left loose in which case the system fails open and voltage goes low. On rare occasion the voltage does go high just the same as it can with a wound rotor alternator.

Thats it for the PM alternator, 3 components 1 of which never fails. The remaining 2 components will fit as spares under the seat and weigh less then 3 pounds.

The wound rotor alternator has between 4 and 7 more components all of which have a high incidence of failure and weighs about 4x to cary as spares to say nothing of the increased difficulty in diagnosis and field repair.

On an adventure, i'd go with a PM alternator every time.

[DiabloADV]

Is there such a thing as a PM alternator for an airhead?

My CL175 has one and it works pretty good. I put a new reg/rec on it and it pumps out the volts and will idle with all the lights on and my GPS plugged in. And that's with a capacitor; no battery.

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by DiabloADV

Is there such a thing as a PM alternator for an airhead?

My CL175 has one and it works pretty good. I put a new reg/rec on it and it pumps out the volts and will idle with all the lights on and my GPS plugged in. And that's with a capacitor; no battery.

Yes, this, it's based on the Ducati alternator. I worked as a mechanic at a BMW dealer. I have a bunch of failed BMW rotors and a few diode boards from that job. I was also a mechanic for a Ducati dealer. The only issues I saw on their charging systems were poor connections between the alternator and regulator/rectifier on older models causing high resistance and poor charging. We'd replace the connector with crimped connectors or solder and that took care of the issue. I did see a bad regulator on a brand new 1098 once. It didn't charge.

[DiabloADV]

Hmmm...do I get the alternator or the ignition kit? Don't think I could spring for both.

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by DiabloADV

Hmmm...do I get the alternator or the ignition kit? Don't think I could spring for both.

I'd say the ignition is more reliable than the alternator.

[DiabloADV]

Originally Posted by Anorak

I'd say the ignition is more reliable than the alternator.

That's what I keep hearing. But the ignition makes it run better!

I don't know what to do...

[_cy_]

along with many others, have consider differences between PM and EM high performance alternators for airheads. in context of prepping a RTW bike.

currently there's only one source each in the world for PM high performance alternators and EM high performance alternator kits for airheads.

difference is EM high performance alternators can use stock parts in a pinch. voltage regulators are the same. stock diode boards, rotors and stators can be used in a pinch. performance will go back to stock. but you will be back on the road.

would not want to be broken down in say Siberia with only one source in the world that's got parts for your downed alternator.

for EM alternators, spare brushes and voltage regulators can be easily carried. stator and rotor can be rewound locally. brushes fits most bosh alternators. voltage regulator can be used from most Volkswagen.

naturally my choice, an 450 watt EM alternator is installed on R80G/S.

for PM alternators, as joel pointed out alternative PM alternator voltage regulator can be rewired to work. burnt up stators can rewound too.

both are valid choices, so long as high performance versions of either PM or EM alternators kits are used on Airheads.

keep in mind, I'm the type person that will yank out out electronic ignition bean can, ICU, 1.5 ohm coil and replacing with points bean can with matching 3 ohm high performance coil on R80G/S.

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by _cy_

keep in mind, I'm the type person that will yank out out electronic ignition bean can, ICU, 1.5 ohm coil and replacing with points bean can with matching 3 ohm high performance coil on R80G/S.

I get a hot tube ignition and a wick carburetor.

Ask Petefromberkeley what he used when he rode his R80 G/S around the world. A neutral switch is a good spare.

[DiabloADV]

Well, I'm not going RTW any time soon. But multi-day trips here and there, sure.

The ignition system that Euromoto sells for the stock alternator allows the stock points and advance setup to stay on the bike. Switching back takes 5 minutes on the road. Something to consider...

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by DiabloADV

Well, I'm not going RTW any time soon. But multi-day trips here and there, sure.

The ignition system that Euromoto sells for the stock alternator allows the stock points and advance setup to stay on the bike. Switching back takes 5 minutes on the road. Something to consider...

looks like we are going opposite directions. look at what just got yanked out of R80 G/S
much easier to field repair points ignition vs electronic ignition with little to no penalty.

once condenser values are dialed in and proper cam lube used, points can last for a very long time.
ran the same set of points and condenser in my 56 Austin Healey 100-4 for 10+ years (my main transport besides a HD Superglide) until I parked it. when your points reaches a neutral state of not depositing metal on either side. points will hold their dwell and can last 25k+ miles.

there's more logic to this ... the most common failure with R80 G/S during RTW is electronic ignition. not always same part fails but result is the same. halls pickup dies, magnets comes loose, ICU dies, etc. etc. trying to locate electronic ignition bean can parts in say Mongolia is not high on my list of fun things.

working electronic ignition yanked on R80 G/S



these little lovelies are in it's new home (one spare beancan with points)
had to switch from 1.5 ohm to 3 ohm coil for points

[DiabloADV]

Originally Posted by _cy_

... the most common failure with R80 G/S during RTW is electronic ignition.

Not the stator/alternator? That's what I keep hearing...