2011 R1200GSA misfire or stall?

[bemiiten]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Having never looked at the attachment points on the cam/camchains, I am surprised they can "move" at all. Are they not locked in place with a woodruff key?

Jim

I've read reports that say no, on the camhead they are not. Find it kind of hard to believe.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by L21

JimVonBaden Is thair an easy way to test the lower stick coils?

In your case, pull the connector from the coil, tape it up, and go for a ride. If there is no change, it is the stick coil. If there is a chenge, try the next one.


See the connector? Lift up gently on the tab and pull the connector loose.

Jim

[L21]

thanks Jim i will try this

[CandyMan_ZA]

Some more feedback,

I just returned from Donford Motorrad, BMW HO requested I take my bike there for an inspection. Neil Berry was kind enough to loan me a 2012 GSA while they inspect mine. I can report back the following,

1. The average fuel consumption indicated on the Donford GSA is 5.9/100km this is what mine was before they loaded the new software now it is 6.6l/100km
2. The Donford GSA has more power, at least my butt dyno tells me that
3. The Donford GSA also pings when riding at 4500rpm (+/- 125km/h) and I accelerate quickly
4. The Donford GSA also detonates/pre-ignites/knocks (not sure what it is?) when at idle and the throttle is blipped
5. The Donford GSA also idles erratically and stalls when the throttle is slightly opened (+/- 1%)

Video of the Donford GSA available below.

Idle with throttle at +/- 1% open
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XXvW...ature=youtu.be

Idle again, at +/- 1% throttle, after switching ignition off and on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph6ea...ature=youtu.be

Blipping the throttle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vccgCn68ZOM

So, is this an issue with all DOHC R1200GS Adventures, in SA only? If so, why is this the case? If this is “by design” and “normal” behaviour I would like BMW to confirm this in writing and indicate there will be no long term damage as a result.

I will continue to hound them, even if it means doing so through the NCC. I have been informed by too many other riders in SA that have/are also experiencing this and BMW fail to come up with a solution or just refuse to do anything about it. They are also told by BMW "we are not aware of any other cases like this".

I will update this thread when I have more information.

If you are also experiencing this please let me know.

[bracky72]

Why does it make me feel better to know I'm not the only one?

[CandyMan_ZA]

Originally Posted by bracky72

Why does it make me feel better to know I'm not the only one?

The power of the people, if we stand together they will listen

[bemiiten]

When syncing my '06 R1200GS, If I barely move the throttle off the stop, like the videos, I always get a big dip in the mercury stick for the left (?)cylinder. Leaving it at idle, or increasing rpm, the sync is right on. Trying to correct the dip with the throttle cable will throw off proper adjustment elsewhere. The engine will skip a ocasional beat before the engine is fully up to tempature , but never stalled and runs fine otherwise.

[CandyMan_ZA]

The official response from BMW SA

From: Dave.Poulton@bmw.co.za [mailtoave.Poulton@bmw.co.za]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 3:54 PM
To: Kevin Van Blerk
Subject: BMW Motorrad Direct
Importance: High

Dear Mr Van Blerk

Thank you for your correspondence.

Your motorcycle was thoroughly tested by Donford Motorrad in order to establish whether any defects were present.

Various driving conditions were simulated during the test and your motorcycle performed flawlessly and line with the ‘character’ of the R 1200GSA.
I trust that this evaluation serves to put you at ease regarding any concerns that you may have regarding the technical integrity of your motorcycle.

Rest assured of our best intentions at all times.

Kind regards

BMW (South Africa) (Pty) Ltd

Mr Dave Poulton
Technical Manager
BMW Motorrad South Africa
Dept Code: ZA-X-10
Cnr 16th & New Road, Midrand, 1685
P.O Box 2955, Pretoria 0001
Phone: +27-12-522-2047
Fax: 086-639-5407
Cell: +27-71-482-8579
mailtoave.Poulton@bmw.co.za
http://www.bmw-motorrad.co.za/

[Bill the Bong]

Do yourself a favour. Unplug the flap control box connector. The flap will stay open due to the springs. Take it for a run. 4 of the bikes in Upington that had the same issues have had this done and all issues have been cured.

As for the low octane map - that's absolute rubbish feedback from Motorrad SA. I saw the e-mail sent to my dealers giving this instruction. In fact I might even have saved a copy. They even have in in their advertising that there is a low octane map for touring Africa.

[CandyMan_ZA]

Originally Posted by Bill the Bong

Do yourself a favour. Unplug the flap control box connector. The flap will stay open due to the springs. Take it for a run. 4 of the bikes in Upington that had the same issues have had this done and all issues have been cured.

Hi Bill, I did just this, removing the electrical connector plug and did a test and then also another test by removing the actual cables connected to the flap, this left the flap in the open position, it still displayed the same pinging and knocking symptoms. When I held the flap in the closed position it responded better to a blip and idled way better

Originally Posted by Bill the Bong

As for the low octane map - that's absolute rubbish feedback from Motorrad SA. I saw the e-mail sent to my dealers giving this instruction. In fact I might even have saved a copy. They even have in in their advertising that there is a low octane map for touring Africa.

If you find it please send it to me

[Bill the Bong]

Shit. Have they actually done a diagnostics check on the 2 knock sensors? Just hookin the bike up to the diagnostics will not show an issue, they need to test them specifically. My one knock sensor was actually loose, that caused the issue during blipping. Knocking during accelleration between 4500 - 5500 rpm was caused by the flap partially closing.

[Dan-M]

Originally Posted by bemiiten

I've read reports that say no, on the camhead they are not. Find it kind of hard to believe.

I see this more and more in cars. A special tool to align cams then the sprockets are locked in place via friction. No dowels or keys.
It makes for fool-proof cam timing when replacing chains or other timing components but the equipment cost if you are working on multiple brands is high.

[f00gami]

Kevin - I think you might be on to several issues at once with your bike. Some might or might not be related to the local fuel quality or possibly a bad component on your bike. What really caught my attention was the fact that your managed to reproduce the “erratic idle” behavior on multiple bikes, including the yellow 2012 loaner.

I myself own a 2010 R1200GSA which runs great and shows no signs of misfires/pinging, stalling or bad behavior when blipping the throttle. However, today I decided to subject my bike to the same procedure as you do in your youtube clips i.e. opening the throttle grip just very slightly past the point of resistance...

The outcome was very much the same as yours; very soon the idle got erratic and the engine was close to stalling on several occasions. Once I released the throttle grip, the idle stabilized.

Using the GS-911 I recorded some engine parameters during two cases; 1) Normal undisturbed idling and 2) Idling with throttle grip very slightly open. Please see this PDF-file for the measurement graphs.

Page 1 shows the undisturbed idle – note that all parameters are stable (except lambda voltage, which exhibits normal closed-loop behavior).

Page 2 shows what happens as the throttle grip is opened very slightly. Note that…

• Lambda voltage quickly bottoms out -> indication of a leaner mixture
• The idle stepper motors (which control the amount of air allowed to bypass the throttle plate) soon bottom out at 0.
• The throttle position sensor (TPS) constantly indicates fully closed throttle, even though applying pressure to the throttle grip surely will cause the throttle plate to open slightly.
• At t=110s, the idle steppers have bottomed out and engine speed starts fluctuating heavily – engine is close to stalling.

My conclusion is that the erratic idle issue which occurs with prolonged small throttle grip openings is caused by the idle speed control logic of BMS-K (engine control) becoming unstable. While applying pressure to the throttle grip, you are letting a bit more air into the engine. As our bikes have no Air Mass Meter, BMS-K must estimate the amount of air entering the engine from engine speed and throttle plate position (the TPS signal). However, as the TPS does not seem to register this very minute movement of the throttle plate, the system has no idea of what you are doing and cannot adjust fueling and ignition timing accordingly. Hence you have effectively created an intake air leak.

As more air enters the engine, the average idle speed starts rising ever so slowly (and the mixture goes lean). The idle steppers will react to the increase in engine speed and start compensating to bring the idle back to 1150 rpm. Once the steppers bottom out, the BMS-K regulator goes unstable.

In this respect I assume you could argue that BMW is right in saying that this is “in line with the character” of our bikes, as every DOHC R1200 will exhibit this behavior (if I’m right). However, this should not be the reason for the other issues you mention such as pinging and engine stalling during throttle blips.

[CandyMan_ZA]

Originally Posted by f00gami

Kevin - I think you might be on to several issues at once with your bike. Some might or might not be related to the local fuel quality or possibly a bad component on your bike. What really caught my attention was the fact that your managed to reproduce the “erratic idle” behavior on multiple bikes, including the yellow 2012 loaner.

I myself own a 2010 R1200GSA which runs great and shows no signs of misfires/pinging, stalling or bad behavior when blipping the throttle. However, today I decided to subject my bike to the same procedure as you do in your youtube clips i.e. opening the throttle grip just very slightly past the point of resistance...

The outcome was very much the same as yours; very soon the idle got erratic and the engine was close to stalling on several occasions. Once I released the throttle grip, the idle stabilized.

Using the GS-911 I recorded some engine parameters during two cases; 1) Normal undisturbed idling and 2) Idling with throttle grip very slightly open. Please see this PDF-file for the measurement graphs.

Page 1 shows the undisturbed idle – note that all parameters are stable (except lambda voltage, which exhibits normal closed-loop behavior).

Page 2 shows what happens as the throttle grip is opened very slightly. Note that…

• Lambda voltage quickly bottoms out -> indication of a leaner mixture
• The idle stepper motors (which control the amount of air allowed to bypass the throttle plate) soon bottom out at 0.
• The throttle position sensor (TPS) constantly indicates fully closed throttle, even though applying pressure to the throttle grip surely will cause the throttle plate to open slightly.
• At t=110s, the idle steppers have bottomed out and engine speed starts fluctuating heavily – engine is close to stalling.

My conclusion is that the erratic idle issue which occurs with prolonged small throttle grip openings is caused by the idle speed control logic of BMS-K (engine control) becoming unstable. While applying pressure to the throttle grip, you are letting a bit more air into the engine. As our bikes have no Air Mass Meter, BMS-K must estimate the amount of air entering the engine from engine speed and throttle plate position (the TPS signal). However, as the TPS does not seem to register this very minute movement of the throttle plate, the system has no idea of what you are doing and cannot adjust fueling and ignition timing accordingly. Hence you have effectively created an intake air leak.

As more air enters the engine, the average idle speed starts rising ever so slowly (and the mixture goes lean). The idle steppers will react to the increase in engine speed and start compensating to bring the idle back to 1150 rpm. Once the steppers bottom out, the BMS-K regulator goes unstable.

In this respect I assume you could argue that BMW is right in saying that this is “in line with the character” of our bikes, as every DOHC R1200 will exhibit this behavior (if I’m right). However, this should not be the reason for the other issues you mention such as pinging and engine stalling during throttle blips.

wow, great data! let me process what I am looking at, thank you f00gami

[CandyMan_ZA]

Originally Posted by CandyMan_ZA

wow, great data! let me process what I am looking at, thank you f00gami

f00gami, this was such a great response, I really appreciate your effort, one cannot argue with such facts there is a most peculiar thing happening here, it can be argued if this is and 'by design' and acceptable? I don't however know if this is what is happening when I blip the throttle and the engine stalls, as you indicated it may be another issue altogether? Are you able to reproduce the ping/knock condition when you 'blip' your GSA, if so are you able to also provide these same graphs when that happens? It may be difficult to reproduce what I experience while riding but it only happens when I blip the throttle, such as in traffic when warning motorists of my presence, when I pull away from a standstill, downshifting or while I am riding technical stuff, however it 'sounds' and 'feels' exactly the same as when I blip the throttle as in the video clips I posted earlier.