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Old 07-18-2012, 03:48 PM   #13066
pluric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Except that everybody I've ever known who has had a fork seal go leaking during the warranty period has had them replaced free-of-charge - on several brands. Even some on these forums with Super Tenere's have had their fork seals replaced under warranty already.

I know when I was a Honda dealer we always replaced leaking fork seals under warranty, unless it was an MX bike that didn't have a warranty, etc.

Just my experience... YMMV, I guess on how customer service oriented your dealer is.

Dallara


~
Yamaha replaced mine. I asked for both to be done so the same oil would be in the forks.
I even said I would pay for the other side. They forgot and only did the leaking one.

Just as well. Almost looks like they used a pipe wrench to get the cap off.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:32 AM   #13067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Except that everybody I've ever known who has had a fork seal go leaking during the warranty period has had them replaced free-of-charge - on several brands. Even some on these forums with Super Tenere's have had their fork seals replaced under warranty already.

I know when I was a Honda dealer we always replaced leaking fork seals under warranty, unless it was an MX bike that didn't have a warranty, etc.

Just my experience... YMMV, I guess on how customer service oriented your dealer is.

Dallara


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Thanks for that. Good to know.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:12 PM   #13068
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Cool2 Further clarification...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyDS View Post
I agree except wearable items like fork seals wouldn't be covered unless they were actually faulty.

Just to further address the seal issue...

Fork seals are *NOT* considered "wearable items" when it comes to warranty coverage, any more than any engine seals, final drive seals, wheel bearing seals, etc. would be. Any oil seal should, in theory, at least last the life of the vehicle's warranty period, fork seal or otherwise. And Yamaha apparently is pretty confident of their various seals to offer up to 4 extra years of warranty coverage (a total of 5 years with the initial warranty period) with *NO* mileage limit.

But then again, let's not forget that *ANY* extended warranty - even when it is the original manufacturer's extension of the original vehicle warranty - is no more than a simple insurance policy. They run their projected failure tables, figure out what their projected total outlay for warranty repairs over the scheduled period, take that figure and divide it by projected number of units sold, and then come up with a net cost figure they can live, take a profit margin on that, and sell the "extended warranty"... Simple as that. Yamaha is simply *betting* that the amount they take in for extra extended warranty coverage will more than cover any repair costs they have to pay out to dealers for resolution of warranty claims.

And believe me, there is also the same "bet" figured into the price you pay for the bike for that first year of warranty coverage, too.

And the best part for Yamaha is they get their *retail* price from the dealer on both the bikes and the extended warranty coverage Y.E.S packages sold. In other words, the poor dealer has to pay Yamaha whatever wants to charge, both for the unit and the additional warranty coverage packages... Your dealer doesn't get to haggle or bargain. Think about that the next time you try to grind the poor dealer down to the last nickel on something he has to get from the factory...

The only person you are hurting is the dealer, and maybe yourself if the dealer can't maintain a decent profit margin and ends up going out of business. Yamaha has already gotten their *full retail* from the dealer in the form of the dealer cost he has to pay.

Just food for thought...

Dallara



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Old 07-19-2012, 02:13 PM   #13069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Just to further address the seal issue...

Fork seals are *NOT* considered "wearable items" when it comes to warranty coverage, any more than any engine seals, final drive seals, wheel bearing seals, etc. would be.

~
Can't argue with that. Sounds like I was miss-informed about fork seals by the parts guy I spoke to. At least it prompted a healthy discussion and a better understanding all round. Thanks again.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:05 PM   #13070
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Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
The only person you are hurting is the dealer, and maybe yourself if the dealer can't maintain a decent profit margin and ends up going out of business. Yamaha has already gotten their *full retail* from the dealer in the form of the dealer cost he has to pay.
Yeah but... how is this different from any other retail business? Doesn't every retailer pay a cost for an item, and then choose what to sell it for? Whether they choose to have a huge markup or not, or whether they choose to negotiate or not, none of this affects the cost they paid.

I fail to see how haggling "only hurts the dealer", if they're getting 'hurt', they're doing it wrong. I mean, no matter how hard I try to grind a dealer, what they choose to sell it to me for, is just that, their choice. If they go out of business for not making enough profit margin, how is that anyone's fault but their own?

All that being said, I'm not much of a negotiator. If I want something, I buy it. I'll call around (or search online) to find the best price, and I may even ask if they can do any better, but that's it. No grinding from me.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:30 PM   #13071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikef5000 View Post
Yeah but... how is this different from any other retail business? Doesn't every retailer pay a cost for an item, and then choose what to sell it for? Whether they choose to have a huge markup or not, or whether they choose to negotiate or not, none of this affects the cost they paid.

I fail to see how haggling "only hurts the dealer", if they're getting 'hurt', they're doing it wrong. I mean, no matter how hard I try to grind a dealer, what they choose to sell it to me for, is just that, their choice. If they go out of business for not making enough profit margin, how is that anyone's fault but their own?


All that being said, I'm not much of a negotiator. If I want something, I buy it. I'll call around (or search online) to find the best price, and I may even ask if they can do any better, but that's it. No grinding from me.

Certainly true enough, Mikef5000...

Perhaps I didn't say what I was trying to confer as eloquently as I could have, but a professional scribe I'm not. My real point is that all too often some folks *THINK* that when they grind a better deal out of the dealer they somehow are getting some kind of discount from the factory - when nothing could be further from the truth.

The factory *ALWAYS* gets full-boat "retail" essentially. No price breaks, no haggling, no discounts (unless under a specific incentive or promotional program), no nothing. The factory sets the price and the dealer has to pay it, period. Then the factory will usually nationally advertise some sort of "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price" which essentially fixes the ceiling of profit margin for the dealer, and hence any price "haggling" comes right out of of the dealer's bottom line - and doesn't affect the manufacturer at all.

It's this way for bikes, parts, and extended warranty coverage. I just wanted people to know that no matter how much haggling, grinding, negotiating, etc. somebody does they're not getting Yamaha to lessen the price even one red cent... Only carving bucks out of the dealer's margin.

And believe me, that margin is a whole lot *LESS* than most people think.

Just FYI...

Dallara



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Old 07-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #13072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post

The only person you are hurting is the dealer, and maybe yourself if the dealer can't maintain a decent profit margin and ends up going out of business. Yamaha has already gotten their *full retail* from the dealer in the form of the dealer cost he has to pay.

Just food for thought...

Dallara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikef5000 View Post

All that being said, I'm not much of a negotiator. If I want something, I buy it. I'll call around (or search online) to find the best price, and I may even ask if they can do any better, but that's it. No grinding from me.


I see this as a "what's fair" issue.

I have seen may great local people, and by that I mean modest establishments, great backup, honest service etc go out because they can't compete on initial sales price with the "big box" Lexus driving guy with the marble floors 100Km away.

Now I get to drive 25 - 100Km round trips for all kinds of things which frankly just makes my life harder.

BUT I am not the kind of person that gets all misty eyed by a dude in a suit sitting in a marble clad office with a Lexus parked outside. All I see there is a lot of money spent on things other than service and backup.

But at the same time, I expect value of some kind. Over the years I have given my money to people who back up my reasonable priced purchase and like Mike, I have done the homework and just ask what's the best you can do?

I usually found a bit of a "Marble index" out there. Usually the more marble, the less the establishment is inclined to be genuine and tend to rely on the service department to charge for things that don't seem to have been done.

Luckily for me the "local" YAMAHA place has no marble and work out of a modest establishment and are decent people, and efficient and honest.

That index works every time.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:07 PM   #13073
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I had noticed that the locals ride their ATVs in the road ditches around here and you end up with little offroad tracks. They looked like fun so I grabbed the gopro and headed down one on the Tenere.



Every time I ride this thing I am more amazed with how well it handles rough terrain.

Oh, and this is all the bike, I am far from a pro offroad rider, I have about 20 hours on a rented WR250F and that is it if you don't count graded gravel roads.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:23 PM   #13074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Except that everybody I've ever known who has had a fork seal go leaking during the warranty period has had them replaced free-of-charge - on several brands. Even some on these forums with Super Tenere's have had their fork seals replaced under warranty already.

I know when I was a Honda dealer we always replaced leaking fork seals under warranty, unless it was an MX bike that didn't have a warranty, etc.

Just my experience... YMMV, I guess on how customer service oriented your dealer is.

Dallara


~
I agree they should replace them under warranty but let me tell you my experience, as you know I traveled to Alaska but even before I got there, we attended the gathering in Whitehorse, Yukon of Teneres.
We did some nice riding, I think you might have seen some of the pictures, there will be much more soon in my blog but on one of the rides in really muddy and nasty stuff both my fork seals started leaking.
When I got back to Whitehorse, Yukon Yamaha told me they would not cover them under warranty because they are considered wearable items, they even told me they called Yamaha USA to see if they would cover them and according to them they WOULD NOT.
Keep in mind I paid the $600 for the extended warranty and they still refused to cover them I'm pretty pissed off.

I really didn't abuse the bike, simply rode in muddy terrain, isn't that what the Super Tenere was designed for??

I'm sure they covered Nick Sanders leaky seals but that's because they didn't want bad publicity

Well, I have a blog and I'm sure Yamaha wouldn't like me to bash them for something as cheap as fork seals.....

I will see what my dealer says when I get back to NJ.

By the way, I tried to clean the seals with tape and a piece of plastic film and they stopped leaking but I'm going to have them checked because I don't know how much oil I lost

I'm still in British Columbia.



Some of the roads in Alaska



Want mud





One more thing, I installed a set of Heidenau K60's before this trip and after 7000 miles the rear was gone, I had to make a detour to Calgary to have a new Heidenau installed, couldn't find a dealer anywhere else
Must have been the rough gravel and the kind of riding I was doing
I'm sure the speeds, way above the speed limits, didn't help either

I'm now in Sparwood, British Columbia for the night, camping, tomorrow I will do Glacier National Park and then head home
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:43 PM   #13075
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Pissed I'd be pissed, too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldie05 View Post
I agree they should replace them under warranty but let me tell you my experience, as you know I traveled to Alaska but even before I got there, we attended the gathering in Whitehorse, Yukon of Teneres.
We did some nice riding, I think you might have seen some of the pictures, there will be much more soon in my blog but on one of the rides in really muddy and nasty stuff both my fork seals started leaking.
When I got back to Whitehorse, Yukon Yamaha told me they would not cover them under warranty because they are considered wearable items, they even told me they called Yamaha USA to see if they would cover them and according to them they WOULD NOT.
Keep in mind I paid the $600 for the extended warranty and they still refused to cover them I'm pretty pissed off.

I really didn't abuse the bike, simply rode in muddy terrain, isn't that what the Super Tenere was designed for??


I'm sure they covered Nick Sanders leaky seals but that's because they didn't want bad publicity


Well, I have a blog and I'm sure Yamaha wouldn't like me to bash them for something as cheap as fork seals.....


I will see what my dealer says when I get back to NJ.


By the way, I tried to clean the seals with tape and a piece of plastic film and they stopped leaking but I'm going to have them checked because I don't know how much oil I lost

That well and truly sucks, Goldie. Seriously sucks, big time. I'd be royally pissed, too!

If you run into another dealer that tells you something like the same story ask them if they would say the same thing if it were a rear shock seal that started leaking... Or a final drive seal... Or any other seal on the bike that keeps oil inside and dirt and the elements out. Then ask them for a copy of the complete warranty policies and conditions, and see if it says anything, anywhere about seals be exempt. Sure, an uncooperative dealer could *try* and claim that a seal was a "normal maintenance item", but then ask them exactly where in the service manual is the mileage or time schedule for the regular maintenance and replacement interval of a fork seal.

If they try to hold your feet to some imaginary fire it sometimes helps to remind them that the only "normal maintenance items" and parts subject to "normal wear and tear" are those listed in the regular maintenance schedule pages, along with tires. If anything else fails prior to the end of the warranty period it is subject to warranty compensation.

Again, though... As I have mentioned before, it's really up to the dealer. Either you get a bad one who is lazy and doesn't care a femto-whit about customers, or you find who is smart enough to know that his paycheck walks in and out the door on two feet, and will go to bat for the customer first and foremost. When I was a dealer I always tried to side with the customer. After all, the customer is the guy who paid me - not the factory. All the factory did was take money from me in one way or another. It's too bad that so many dealers forget that simple reality.

A bigger one is that the customers in the world can easily exist without either each manufactuer or their dealers, but neither the manufacturers or the dealers can exist without the world's customers.

Dallara



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Old 07-20-2012, 12:22 AM   #13076
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Originally Posted by Goldie05 View Post
Yukon Yamaha told me they would not cover them under warranty because they are considered wearable items, they even told me they called Yamaha USA to see if they would cover them and according to them they WOULD NOT.
The background to my story is pretty much the same and Yukon Yamaha told me the same as they told George. Also there were a lot of leaking fork seals in Whitehorse. I spoke to my local dealer earlier today and he is requesting Yukon Yamaha to submit a claim to Yamaha and reimburse me. We'll see what happens.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:50 AM   #13077
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A colleague has a fork seal problem and the dealer changed with no charges. They said to him the fork seals aren’t covered in guarantee but they did it.
To avoid this problem I installed this fork seals they worked fine in my DRZ.

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Old 07-20-2012, 05:51 PM   #13078
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Hey all,

I haven't kept up with this thread in months, but just a quick check in. I just crossed the 8k mile mark at 11 months. That consists of 30% dirt/fire road 70% slab. Not one single issue and I love the bike.

Headed to CO, NM, and maybe WO in September and can't wait. 4k in 8 days.

Cheers
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:46 PM   #13079
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The background to my story is pretty much the same and Yukon Yamaha told me the same as they told George. Also there were a lot of leaking fork seals in Whitehorse. I spoke to my local dealer earlier today and he is requesting Yukon Yamaha to submit a claim to Yamaha and reimburse me. We'll see what happens.
Often when determining the warrantability of a product failure a some basic questions will prove to be a good litmus test for a legit claim. You basically need to convince Yamaha that the part was defective.


One, was there an outside influence that contributed to the failure?


Two, had the unit exposed to abnormal, commercial, severe or racing conditions?


Three,was the failure just simply “Fair wear and tear”?


Often your bigger/better performing dealerships will get a monthly allocation of credit to use as “good will” towards issues that do not meet the definition of the warranty. Also, big dealers say like a Honda Power House dealer may have pre approval authority to perform repairs without waiting on the factory rep to review and approve the mess. Those claims are still reviewed by the factory, but the dealership may have some wiggle room if they move a lot of product. Yeah, there is politicts between the factories and dealers.

From my vast off road experience, I’ll bet if the fork seals were cleaned of dirt either on or off the bike, they would function correctly. Does that mean that the seals were/are defective? That depends on who defines “defective”…and that generally ain’t the customer. Your dealer may just eat the repair cost to avoid the whole damn hassle bewteen you, him and the factory, some call it the cost of doing business. Some call it other things.

Of course the real fun comes in the form of a recall. Say in six months the factory has a recall on all Super Tenere's due to premature failure of the fork seals. Well good luck trying to get the money you paid back for your repair.
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:16 PM   #13080
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My take on this is this...

1) I do not expect rubber to win against grit.
2) I would run some gaiters (just like the old days) or wraps (kriegas) if I was going to do huge amounts of dirt / mud.
3) I would try a clean first. As with dirt bikes the crap tends to push out the seals.
4) Have they failed or just become clogged. If they are cleaned and they are back to normal well then use a Kriega or equivalent for long trips.
5) I would hassle the dealers and YAMAHA because having a good think about the bikes "issues" and good will, will always be better than having no idea there is an "issue". YAMAHA may not have expected the kind of use these bikes are getting (although the seal thing I would say they should have). Try and make them pay as this is a better persuader of management then anything else. This will appear on P&L's every month and can be directly traceable where as "good will" is a bit airy fairy for accountants, until they go and try and sell the company. I think the marketing department thought that Starbucks was going to be the prime destination, while the engineers were fuming in the background.
5) They may update the front fender and seals at a later date if that is the case. I mean what power does an engineer have in a company really. It's all their fault anyway.
YAMAHA may threaten to switch suspension suppliers if they don't fix it.
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