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Old 08-23-2012, 08:22 AM   #91
viola-tor OP
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So it's been a sad summer, at least as far as the orange beastie is concerned. But anyway, I'm going to give it a another stab to try to figure out this MPG/fueling issue so hopefully I can do some fall riding.

HOWEVER,

There are some conditions: I personally have to be able to do it at home, and at minimal cost. I've been unsuccessful at finding a competent professional KTM tuner within a thousand miles, much less an affordable one.

I've added a Shorai battery, and finally got Windows running on my Mac. I know how to upload/download maps, and run all the TuneECU diagnostic tools (which all pass). MPG is still in the mid 20's (when I parked the bike in March ). That's where I stand.


Here's what I WANT to accomplish, in this order:

1. Correct/ideal fuel mix.
2. KNOWING I have the correct ideal fuel mix (like hard data, not just "going for a ride and tallying MPG")
3. 35 mpg or better, whilst flogging it (which seems a reasonable expectation)
4. HP gain if possible (only as a bonus, I really just want my bike back)


Tell me if I'm wrong, but it sure seems to me to satisfy these goals I'll need some sort of diagnostic equipment, yes? I'm ignorant of such things. I've heard of tailpipe sniffers (measuring exhaust "mix"?), and of course dynos (measuring HP and tourque). What about some sort of real-time data logger while the bike is running that gives insight into fuel mix and such? Or would that be part of a dyno tune session?

I'm guessing it is unlikely reasonable to attain this equipment at home, which puts me back to square one (please tell me if I'm wrong or if there is a poor-man's work-around).

Which brings me to the OTHER way out of this mess: Becoming the first LC8 owner in history to REINSTALL the SAS system, attempting to bring the bike back to close-to-stock. This seems wrong out of principle, but I can put principles aside if it means I'll be allowed back in the saddle. Plus this would cost next to nothing. Would it work? Reinstall SAS and load stock map? I still wouldn't KNOW that it's working optimally, but there's a good chance it would be...

Be gentle, I know the few OC inmates who actually, TRULY understand this F.I. black magic must get SOOOOO frustrated explaining it to us neanderthals again and again. Your insight is appreciated. I mean, I get it: Fuel + Oxygen = Go. Right. To much/little of one or the other throws it off. Yes, TuneECU will let you change a multitude of parameters. That's great. My hang up is how one KNOWS what to change, and how much. Not guess, but KNOW. Guessing seems to offer no advantage over carbs, and equally as frustrating. My bike is running rich. Obviously. Great. TuneECU hasn't helped me to come to that conclusion, nor has it even confirmed that.

Okay, enough, I'm starting to rant. Time for solutions!

Diek
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:13 AM   #92
Dusty
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Quote:
Fuel + Oxygen = Go. Right
Don't forget Fire

I am sure the experts will be here soon to help.

How about a list of mods to the bike to get the help rollin.....

A screenshot of TuneECU hooked up can also be helpful.
Air filter.. prefilter?
Exhaust
which map now... actual OEM#
gearing
Throttle body intakes clean
fuel filter change
or anything else that might help.

My guess is you have an aftermarket Airfilter(which could be beyond its life span) and a prefilter, and the Arka map.= gas hog to rich



As i made my bike more dirt worthy my mileage has slowly gone down.
Tires- gearing- prefilter- Maps... just sayin thats my experience.
Again my experience is the Arka map is rich, to rich for my bike. 07 w/arkos and full ectomies.
I can run the stock map on my bike with the F/L switch set 0 above 2000 rpm, tho i get the best fuel mileage with that setup i hear the fan run more than usual when in 1st and 2nd which leads me to believe it is near lean. This is all just seat o the pants tune, i would love a data logger, just not in the budget.

So when its hot in the summer i run the 1/2 Arka map with some tweaks, and jump back to the stock map in the cooler months.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:26 AM   #93
gefr
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I remember "Happy Go Lucky" had a similar issue with a carbed SE.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=387924&page=4

Good luck.

gefr screwed with this post 08-23-2012 at 09:48 AM
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:14 AM   #94
ChR1s
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How does the overall engine performance compare to its prior state?
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:21 AM   #95
viola-tor OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
Don't forget Fire

Oh yeah! I knew I was forgetting something...

I am sure the experts will be here soon to help.

How about a list of mods to the bike to get the help rollin.....

Sure, I can refresh ya'll:

'07 990 EFI, 50,000 miles

BMC reusable filter, with Uni prefilter, both cleaned and lightly oiled.

16/45 gearing

Flappendectemy - yes

Single FMF can with Ned's 2 into 1 midpipe

OEM '07 map, and trying '07 Akro. Both running very rich (apparently), tried O2 sensors on and off with both maps, no appreciable difference.

Throttle bodies cleaned, double and triple checked work
Fuel filter changed, KTM fuel pump rebuild kit used

All the problems started after I pulled the charcoal cannister and the SAS (following OC tutorials). Bike was running "fine," getting upper 30's MPG all around, after SAS/Canni dropped to mid 20's and other riders behind report fuel odor. I've dissasembled 3 times to check my work, as far as I can tell it's tight, clean, and thorough...


A screenshot of TuneECU hooked up can also be helpful.

I'm out of town for another week, but I'll get some fresh screen shots when I get home. There are some previous screen shots a few pages back.

Air filter.. prefilter?
Exhaust
which map now... actual OEM#
gearing
Throttle body intakes clean
fuel filter change
or anything else that might help.

My guess is you have an aftermarket Airfilter(which could be beyond its life span) and a prefilter, and the Arka map.= gas hog to rich



As i made my bike more dirt worthy my mileage has slowly gone down.
Tires- gearing- prefilter- Maps... just sayin thats my experience.
Again my experience is the Arka map is rich, to rich for my bike. 07 w/arkos and full ectomies.
I can run the stock map on my bike with the F/L switch set 0 above 2000 rpm, tho i get the best fuel mileage with that setup i hear the fan run more than usual when in 1st and 2nd which leads me to believe it is near lean. This is all just seat o the pants tune, i would love a data logger, just not in the budget.

Interesting, I may ask you some more questions when I have the bike plugged in in front of me.


So when its hot in the summer i run the 1/2 Arka map with some tweaks, and jump back to the stock map in the cooler months.

Thanks for taking the time. Every little hint helps at this point!



.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:25 AM   #96
viola-tor OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gefr View Post
I remember "Happy Go Lucky" had a similar issue with a carbed SE.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=387924&page=4

Good luck.
A good read, but seems to be kinda specific trouble shooting for carbs...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChR1s View Post
How does the overall engine performance compare to its prior state?
It performs just fine! I took a trip to Big Bend Nat. Park in March, getting 23-27 mpg all the way, slabbing and dirting (down from 35-38 MPG average pre-SAS removal)... But performance was not adversely effected. I can't afford to ride at 23 mpg is the sad truth. MUST FIX. It's just hard when it's not really broken...


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Old 08-23-2012, 04:01 PM   #97
Katoom119
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Just remember if you reinstall the SAS you won't be able to run an exhaust gas analyzer as it screws with the true values.
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Old 08-23-2012, 04:07 PM   #98
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I believe the only thing you have not tried is injectors cleaning.

I would think thie only option in your shoes is ultrasonic jet cleaning.
Cheers.
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Old 08-23-2012, 06:49 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gefr View Post
I would think thie only option in your shoes is ultrasonic jet cleaning.
Cheers.
I'm confused. How would dirty injectors increase fuel consumption?

Diek, call me when you get back in town.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:28 PM   #100
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I dont know if this has been discussed in this thread. My fuel milage was going down. Started out over 35mpg, then slowly going down to about 29mpg. The rear scorp was worn out, so replaced with half used dunlap 908. My mpg increased back to over 35mpg. Also, I had been tacking about 5k at 75mph, now with different tire, about 5k at 80mph. The gearing is 16 45. Dont really know why or what this means, its just the results so far.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:31 AM   #101
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I'm not sure if this has been covered before but tires make a big differnce for my 950 Adv S.

When running Conti Trail Attack I get to around 320-330 km before low fuel light (that's my check point) but with more dirtoriented tires, MT21 in this case, I drop down to 250-270km before low fuel light.

I guess that a fast calc that gives approx. from 42mpg () to 33mpg (). In european sense that is from 5,6 l/100km to 7,2 l/100km.

This has been calculated over several highway miles in both cases and are very persitent.

/Zappa
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:38 PM   #102
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Don't know why I hadn't thought of this before. Viola-tor's recent mpg measurements have been made with his 19/17 street wheels mounted and he may be comparing mpg figures obtained with his 21/18 knobby wheels. I don't know if he uses his GPS distance (which is usually a little less than an accurate front wheel odometer) or what the odometer says. At any rate the wheels do have a different outside diameter, but I don't think enough to account for the difference. Needs to be checked out though.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Baja View Post
I dont know if this has been discussed in this thread. My fuel milage was going down. Started out over 35mpg, then slowly going down to about 29mpg. The rear scorp was worn out, so replaced with half used dunlap 908. My mpg increased back to over 35mpg. Also, I had been tacking about 5k at 75mph, now with different tire, about 5k at 80mph. The gearing is 16 45. Dont really know why or what this means, its just the results so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtJack View Post
Don't know why I hadn't thought of this before. Viola-tor's recent mpg measurements have been made with his 19/17 street wheels mounted and he may be comparing mpg figures obtained with his 21/18 knobby wheels. I don't know if he uses his GPS distance (which is usually a little less than an accurate front wheel odometer) or what the odometer says. At any rate the wheels do have a different outside diameter, but I don't think enough to account for the difference. Needs to be checked out though.

It's true, I do switch back and forth on wheel size, gearing, and tire type often. Previously this has only had a variation of a 3 or 4 MPG difference max over years of riding with various rubber. I'm now experiencing 10-15 MPG off the "usual." SIGNIFICANT! I'm pretty sure something else is going on...

Brakes seem fine, chain seems fine... But keep the ideas coming! It'd be great if it was something silly/easy.
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:37 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viola-tor View Post
Brakes seem fine, chain seems fine... But keep the ideas coming! It'd be great if it was something silly/easy.
I just read through this thread and it seems like you've been chasing this issue for a while. Why not just put the bike back to stock (emissions crap back on) and test the mileage to see what you get? Seems easy enough to do, and will immediately rule out a number of possibilities. It will cost you next to nothing assuming you kept all the parts.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:17 PM   #105
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Seriously Diek, if you want I'll try and email my tune to you since you can't get up here. I mean it works in mine and it might get you headed in a direction. There's nothing more frustrating than having something that doesn't work right.
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