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Old 08-24-2012, 01:00 AM   #16
GrahamD
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@Pecha72

I think that was worth at least 0.03c. Well stated. Such wide ranging insights on ADV, in an ABS thread and all

Never liked those new fangled telescopic forks or Overhead cam engines either. I tried them 30 years ago and...

Add to the fact that there are some smarter UBS systems as well. It's all getting better.

I also second the fact that you should not only get to know your bike well without all the assistance but you should also get to know YOUR ABS / UBS equipped system and how it works and YOUR bikes limits with or without the ABS.

I like ABS / UBS but it's not a replacement for skill. For best results you have to use some skill and experience with the ABS as well.

Just as you have to get to know your tires limits etc in different situations, so goes with anything on the bike.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:19 AM   #17
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My 990 Adventure is my first bike with ABS in 28 years of riding. I'd rather not have it.

Many points already made elsewhere but I don't like anything that interferes with the control of the bike. Often deliberately, I've locked up fronts, locked up backs and never had an incident that would have had a better outcome if I had been riding an ABS bike. It's a personal thing. I just feel more in control.

I could have gone for the 990 R model sans ABS but I preferred the finish and the height of the standard 990. The ABS unit takes up vaulable under-seat space and will be more complicated to maintain but I do recignise that the bike will have greater appeal if and when I come to sell it.

New riders should be aware that ABS on bikes does not do the same magical job that it does on cars .

Jon
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:34 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jonny955 View Post
New riders should be aware that ABS on bikes does not do the same magical job that it does on cars .
Care to enlighten us, what that ´magical job´ is, that it does on cars, but does not do on bikes?

Personally I think all ABS systems (at least on ADV bikes) should have an off-switch for the serious off-road conditions, and also for riders, who think they can do better without it.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:40 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
Care to enlighten us, what that ´magical job´ is, that it does on cars, but does not do on bikes?

Personally I think all ABS systems (at least on ADV bikes) should have an off-switch for the serious off-road conditions, and also for riders, who think they can do better without it.
Just one example: Steer and brake around objects on slippery wet roads .

Bikes have bank angles to consider with extreme loading/offloading of pressure on the tyre contact patches during pitching and banking in corners. It just isn't the same and until we can rely on some super-dooper technology, the only way ABS can work to improve safety is with an upright bike in a straight-ish line.

I didn't claim I could do better without ABS, by the way. I just prefer less interferance.

Many ABS systems kick in too early (bikes and cars) for my liking. They have to be set to help the least skilled rider/driver. The last car I had, under heavy braking, would start to pulse the brakes way before the wheels had gained maximum braking effect (i.e just before the wheels would normally begin to lock up). Also, on roughly surfaced TARMAC roads many systems I have experienced cannot cope with the rapid unloading/loading of contact pressure, and therefore grip, as the wheels bounce over the peaks but that's only an issue if you have to use the brakes, of course!

Luckily my KTM doesn't seem to be as intrusive as I had feared and at least I can turn ABS off for off-roading.

Jon
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:18 AM   #20
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I prefer them without but as most here said I think ABS will work well on you.
Also in the future if you want to sell your bike is going to be easier.
Better if there is a switch to turn it off but if not try it without the switch and you can decide if you want it.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:20 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jonny955 View Post
Just one example: Steer and brake around objects on slippery wet roads .

Bikes have bank angles to consider with extreme loading/offloading of pressure on the tyre contact patches during pitching and banking in corners.
As long as we´re talking about road-riding (tarmac or gravel roads), I think it´s pretty much the exact opposite, especially for beginners. Without ABS, they won´t have a snowballs chance in hell to execute a controlled hard braking AND at the same time going around an object, when the surface does not offer perfect and unchanging grip. And remember, there´s the element of surprise, that´s very important, and it can catch out an experienced rider, too. A beginner is very highly likely to either lock the front or back end, or be afraid to use the brakes effectively at all, and neither action will help much.

It´s not the correct way to brake, but when you´ve wetted your pants, it doesn´t matter, and with ABS the beginner can afford to just slam on both brakes in panic, and will be much less likely to go down. Even steering the bike a bit will be possible.

When the bike is very heavily loaded, two-up & luggage, I think many experienced riders will look like novices in a situation like that. That is because the really bad situations are the ones, that are very hard to simulate. Usually there´s no time to think, you just need to act instantly. You can ride a bike for decades, and never get into a situation like that. But on the other hand you´ll never know, it could happen today or tomorrow.

One thing that I do worry about a bit, is the possibility that new riders, who have ABS on their first bike, depend on it too much, and start to think that effective braking is the same as just slamming both brakes. It is not.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:37 AM   #22
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Having taken the Basic Rider Course, I am aware of the intricacies of braking. I'm aware that I can't just slam on them, and I'm aware that locking up your tires is bad. I've actually locked up my front wheel when on the freeway before, and managed to stay shiny side up. This situation was different in that it was city riding, I had no chance to think about what to do, and I probably simply panicked (again, I'm not even sure if I locked up my tires, I literally had 20ft. of space). I'm looking for something that will help me keep the rubber on the road in those situations, where my 1 year of experience simply doesn't stretch (and I'm (a little) painfully aware that I'm still un-experienced). Whether I want it on or off on the dirt is something I'll figure out when I actually get on the dirt. (Can't wait.)

Thanks for all your insights!
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:15 AM   #23
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I am also a new rider and got my 2012 DL650 in March of this year. Since then I have put on over 7k miles and had lots of fun. The 2012 comes with ABS mandatory and it has helped me a few times so far. First that comes to mind is those big white squares at cross walks when they are wet, but that only takes one time to learn the evilness of those. I also took the rider course and they taught braking with no ABS and it was good to learn; but when a car was pointed at me going the wrong way down the highway while I was going 55mph I was glad to have the ABS(and proper swerve technique from the class)

If you do get a bike with ABS I would find a dirt road with no cars and a nice sized hill. Then while going down the hill put the back brake on, then a little front brake if you want, it is kinda strange so just be prepared to adjust. I learned trying to stop because something was at the bottom and it was definitely an "oh shit" moment. Just gotta practice and get used to it I think.
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Network Monkey View Post
If you do get a bike with ABS I would find a dirt road with no cars and a nice sized hill. Then while going down the hill put the back brake on, then a little front brake if you want, it is kinda strange so just be prepared to adjust. I learned trying to stop because something was at the bottom and it was definitely an "oh shit" moment. Just gotta practice and get used to it I think.
Ummm....shouldn't you have mentioned to turn OFF the ABS for this little experiment? Otherwise, it's a good way to end up with a broken bike and a hospital bill.

Jon
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:23 AM   #25
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Ummm....shouldn't you have mentioned to turn OFF the ABS for this little experiment? Otherwise, it's a good way to end up with a broken bike and a hospital bill.

Jon
Nope, the DL ABS works fine for me on dirt. Your riding style has to compensate, but I can use a lot more brake.

Once the ABS cuts in, just back off a bit and try again, I can afford to brake a lot closer (or over) the traction limit since I know a wheel isn't suddenly going to lock and dump me.

Just crawled down a nasty nasty dirt road today with ABS on all the time - had to come to a dead stop on a very steep slope covered with loose rock while a couple of kangaroos finished up what they were doing before I could get past as well.
Worked just fine and was a lot easier than doing the same descent without ABS - which I have done in the past.

Not saying all ABS systems are like that, but this one is.

Pete
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:44 AM   #26
GrahamD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Network Monkey View Post

If you do get a bike with ABS I would find a dirt road with no cars and a nice sized hill. Then while going down the hill put the back brake on, then a little front brake if you want, it is kinda strange so just be prepared to adjust. I learned trying to stop because something was at the bottom and it was definitely an "oh shit" moment. Just gotta practice and get used to it I think.
Except with a Super Tenere.

You apply the front and let the smarts modulate the Front back bias and the ABS. All bikes are different.

Find a nice gnarly section with a rub off and give it ago on your bike.

Read the manual as well. They are all different.
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:04 AM   #27
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Except with a Super Tenere.

You apply the front and let the smarts modulate the Front back bias and the ABS. All bikes are different.

Find a nice gnarly section with a rub off and give it ago on your bike.

Read the manual as well. They are all different.
The S10. according to the reviews, is the only one with an ABS system that is still usable in the dirt. even so, there are many riders who would like to be able to switch it off so it's not 100%.

Peter W, the off-road riding I have done requires that you lock wheels up (deliberately) sometimes to improve control and furrow the loose dirt in front of the bike to aid stopping. I have never met any other off-road rider (including professional instructors like Si Pavey) who advocates leaving the ABS switched on for better off-road control. I take my hat off to you!

Jon
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:29 AM   #28
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Was never a huge fan of ABS until it outsmarted a bone-headed move (by me) and kept me from impacting/sliding under a Chevy Silverado. 99% of the time you don't even know it's there - it's the 1% that means the most...

It's no replacement for skill or good judgement; rather a tool to be used when you need it. Wouldn't want to ride without it now...
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:00 AM   #29
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I wish it was an option on all bikes, so if you did not want the extra hardware complication or price increase you could opt for the model without it.

In more than 30 years of riding without it and no accidents, I really don't see any need for it if you are a skilled rider with some dirt experience. I don't see a need for traction control either. If you're a newbie throwing a leg over your brand new Hayabusa for the first time, both are probably a good thing.

All I see is technology replacing skill. Traction control, accelerating or braking, is a matter of controlling force and understanding how much to use in the given situation. I believe having technology replacing direct operator intention will lead to insurance company dictated riding parameters that "they" consider acceptable.

I'll take my motorcycle riding with the pure and direct experience it is supposed to be. I don't even like Yamaha's interference in direct throttle control with their ride by wire programming on the S10.

I say go ride a real dirt bike in slippery/loose conditions to understand proper traction control, then take to the streets. That's what worked for and probably a few others.
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:38 AM   #30
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Hopefully without sounding too much like a broken record; the Tenere's Linked ABS brakes, if you haven't tested them yourself, don't lump them together with the other options; they are a completely different animal.

I've done two extreme tests (Umm, both totally intentional and in a controlled manner )

Having a great old time on a loose gravel road, coming over the top of a hill at about 50 mph, and seeing a stop sign at the very bottom of the steep decent. Grabbed the front brake and squeezed more... more... more... till both brakes were pulsing with ABS and I was quickly coming to a stop. Despite the sheer mass I had moving down that hill, I stopped well clear of the stop sign. Could it have been done without Linked/ABS brakes? Sure! But it would have taken way more effort on my end, and wouldn't have looked near as pretty.

The other situation started similar (speed on gravel), but instead of a hill it was a sharp corner. Obviously braking first, then cornering is the optimum method, but I came into it too hot, and had to continue braking through the corner. With ABS still pulsing, I put my faith into the thing and leaned into the corner, and it just worked. Came out 90 degrees later at about 20 mph lower speed, removed the seat from my clenched rear, and swore, on a big bike, I can't go without ABS again.

I've ridden in slippery nasty mud, down stair-stepped rocky downhills, and numerous other terrains, and never once have I wished the ABS was not on.

I could see it interfering when on single track and needing to make a hairpin turn, when the only way to pull it off is to slide the rear tire... but... as much as I advocate taking the big bikes off road... that's pushing their limits a bit don't you think?

But alas, it's all personal preference. I think the easy answer, since you're asking about ABS, is yes, you want ABS.

For those folks that know they slide, who want to slide, then perhaps you don't want ABS, for anyone else, it's just a great feature.

(And FWIW, any bike with ABS can easily be run without ABS (whether or not there is a switch from the factory). Pull the fuse if you hate it that much, or spend a couple minutes and couple dollars, and run a switch to wire leaving the fuse)
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