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Old 09-15-2012, 11:20 AM   #69151
Adv Grifter
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Originally Posted by bross View Post
So, how do you guys who are better at this do it?
I've used a TKC 80 on my DR650 in Baja ... lots of deep sand. It worked very well. Also ridden my buddies Wee Strom with TKC's mounted up. Not bad but the Wee is not easy in sand.

There may be better knobbies for sand but they may not work great on highway ... and for sure won't wear as tough or as long as the TKC's do.

On real light weight dirt bikes (two stroke 250's) sand never bothered me much. When I got more into dual sport riding on 600 class 4 strokes in the late 80's I discovered I SUCKED at sand riding. But over the years ... with lots of practice, crashes and advice from "experts" I've got better at it. I even rode my DL1000 in some mild sand on several Baja and Mexico rides.

I don't believe there is a hard and fast method for sand riding to guarantee success riding a heavy bike. I've a buddy who is amazing in deep sand ... and he sits down through all of it. (XR600R)

For me ... I do better standing up. One of the most important technique, IMO, is LOOKING WELL OUT AHEAD. Ignore whats right in front of you ... fix your gaze far out ahead. Things just get easier. No idea why. It works.

Standing and keeping a very loose grip on the bars works well for me. Steering with your feet works too ... for me. But most important is looking ahead.

I keep my speed moderate and steady ... then when the bike starts to dig in or go squirrely ... I gas it a bit ... but as soon as I'm back under control I slow back down. In long stretches of very deep sand you must STAY on the gas and steadily increase speeds until your past the worst. NEVER slow down suddenly ... you will crash.

Some will say just gas it until the bike "planes out" . Sometimes hard to do on a very heavy, loaded up bike. In my early days in Baja I tried "gassing it" and ended up going 70 mph in deep Baja sand. If and when you crash at these speeds ... you are in trouble.

I like to go about 25 to 30 mph and then gas it just a bit to pull out of deeper sand, then slow back down. But everyone has a different approach. Seat time is what really helps. Work out what techniques work best for you.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:24 AM   #69152
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Originally Posted by bross View Post
What's a sand capable front tire? I had new TKCs mounted front and back. Sand was a very small component of this ride, basically about 1 km stretch. Rest was mostly hard pack gravel and then steep, loose rocky climbs and descents. And what's your recommended method for getting through this? My wife took the advice of a fellow inmate and sat way back on her seat, 2nd gear, steady throttle and made it easily on her DR200 running IRC GP1s.

I was on the pegs, steering with the pegs, in 2nd gear but felt like the front got caught in a rut and wouldn't climb out and that's when the front washed.

So, how do you guys who are better at this do it?
Speed is the best way through deep sand. You have to stay on top of it. I live in NJ and used to ride in the pine barrens, which are mostly like beach sand. I found that going as fast as possible was the only way to stay on top. As soon as you slow down, you sink and that's when the squirrely stuff starts.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:29 AM   #69153
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
Unless the 2 of you are over 400lb or at altitude or something, you don't even really need the 790 kit for 2up touring. Just open the intake/exhaust and tune the carb. If you get it right, it'll do over 90MPH on stock gears, and it'll get there quicker than most factory-stock cages. Not running lean jetting also makes the bike feel a little cooler.

We ride the DR 2up a LOT (dirt, street, AND slab), and our only real issue is that the seat isn't very long. This means that we can't move around much. We're also crowded by a tankbag, tank panniers, a steep IMS tank, and a rear topbox. The rider and passenger pegs are lowered, touring pegs are bolted to the skid, and the seat is a Seat Concepts kit on the stock pan. I also have stiffer springs front and rear. The lowered rider pegs allow my knees to tuck nicely behind the tank panniers. The topbox is moved back 3-4" from where it would normally be.

We're 5'8"/200lb/30"inseam and 5'4"/petite/30"inseam. If you're much bigger than us, I'd suggest a more spacious bike like a DL. The lowered/touring pegs, seat, and springs are highly recommended for much 2up on a DR.
790: awful nice to have that power when you need it.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:43 AM   #69154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bross View Post
What's a sand capable front tire? I had new TKCs mounted front and back. Sand was a very small component of this ride, basically about 1 km stretch. Rest was mostly hard pack gravel and then steep, loose rocky climbs and descents.
A more open knobby pattern up front typically does better for my use. I run an AMS Sand Snake knobby for trails around here. Others use something like a more street-friendly MT21. Some people prefer a wide tire for float, but the steering wanders with a wide front on my bike. I prefer a narrow front tire that acts like a pizza cutter. It doesn't float at lower speeds, but it doesn't need to. It seems to hold a line better, instead of washing out or getting easily deflected.

I use a grooved K761 in the rear. It has enough drive to propel the bike.

Quote:
And what's your recommended method for getting through this? My wife took the advice of a fellow inmate and sat way back on her seat, 2nd gear, steady throttle and made it easily on her DR200 running IRC GP1s.

I was on the pegs, steering with the pegs, in 2nd gear but felt like the front got caught in a rut and wouldn't climb out and that's when the front washed.

So, how do you guys who are better at this do it?
Air down the tires a bit. With the front in a rut, lean back and roll on the gas to unweight the front a bit. Get forward up by the tank and kick your inside leg forward with your toes up when you want to turn. With a light bike, your weight position has more influence.

Some people also recommend a steering stabilizer for sand, saying that it makes it easier to steer by weighting the pegs. The gas is still your friend.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:46 AM   #69155
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Sand riding

Thanks for the tips guys, I'll try to find some sand but I'm gonna practice on the DR.

Your comment about keeping your eyes up hit home. I have always struggled with that, when I used to take our kids out quadding and dirt biking, all we had was sand. I knew to look far ahead and when I'd do that, I'd get to the other side of the mud hole, deep sand pit or what ever and think. "Damn that was easy!". Then try the same trail the next week and end up looking at the fricking rut I was trying to stay out of and down I'd go. I think that's exactly what I did, looked down and of course that's where I went.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:59 PM   #69156
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Can someone help me with some info please?
I have my DR all put together and I just need a single job to be done. To tighten the magneto screw. Since I don't have a 32mm wrench around I thought of just poping the engine into a higher gear and tighten the screw to 160NM while holding the rear brake. Could that damage something? Seeing that the DR engine puts out about 54NM ...
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:54 PM   #69157
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White number plate?

I managed to cook the number plate on the right side of my DR after putting soft bags on and having the rubber piece that holds the plate off the exhaust fall out. Anyone got an old plate they took off collecting dust that they want to get rid of?



Thanks.
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Old 09-15-2012, 02:29 PM   #69158
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Nevermind, I tried but the clutch is slipping...
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:35 PM   #69159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MADurstewitz View Post
Speed is the best way through deep sand. You have to stay on top of it. I live in NJ and used to ride in the pine barrens, which are mostly like beach sand. I found that going as fast as possible was the only way to stay on top. As soon as you slow down, you sink and that's when the squirrely stuff starts.
And as Bross said his wife did, keep your weight back and unload the front end as much as possible. I used to ride on the mine tailings on an XT500 back when I lived on the Keeweenaw Peninsula in Michigan. 50-60 mph across the stamp sands was a blast.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:51 PM   #69160
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Mate, those levers look great. Any chance you could post a plan drawing of them, with measurements, so I can check the size against my hands and bars? If they're a fit, I want to preorder (It's a long way to send them back from Aus).

Quote:
Originally Posted by warp9man View Post
2nd item is Levers
I could find any decent levers out there for the DR, you get stock or Bikemaster levers, nothing that i was happy with so. you guessed it were making levers to and im supper happy with them and these puppies are already be machined in mass quantities. only diffrence from the picture is it will be titanium color pivot and black blade for a 2 tone look. we tried a lever with the sport bike little lever adjustments on them but after a few rides in the dirt the little adjusters siezed up so we went a more old scholl and simpler adjustment of bolt with backer nut. the levers fold and are adjustable for reach.



yes we are also doing a real chain guide that can take a beating.

here are the prototypes that are working out great, they use the stock perches and work with the OEM brake switches. im also going to include new pivot bolts for guys that are not running the OEM hand guards.



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Old 09-15-2012, 10:50 PM   #69161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bross View Post
So, how do you guys who are better at this do it?
I suck in sand too. It's always difficult on a heavy bike.

I don't have any additional advice but I did recently see a great explanation about why sand is such a bitch.

I think most of us are familiar with the 'trail' or 'caster' effect that keeps your from wheel pointed forward. Riding on flat ground the contact patch is behind the steering axis and the force on the contact patch adds a self centering effect to the steering.

When your front wheel is in deep sand the force where the tire contacts the sand is in front of the steering axis. You get a negative trail effect. With the contact force in front it makes the tire want to turn and the more it turns the stronger the turning force is applied to the tire. It wants to do anything but go straight. You can counteract this in a few ways.

1) Move as much weight as far back as possible. This will help stop the front tire from sinking into the sand as far which will lessen the negative trail effect.

2) Accelerate and stay on the gas. This will lighten the front end even more and help the front tire stay high enough to steer normally.

3) Go fast. If you go fast enough front wheel won't be able to sink into the sand and will steer normally.

Yeah, how fast do you want to crash? Like Grifter said, don't slow down suddenly. Chopping the throttle will bury the front wheel even deeper and the negative trail will steer the wheel right out from under you.

My sand riding hasn't gotten much better but I believe understanding what makes it difficult will help me develop my own techniques for getting through it.
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Old 09-16-2012, 02:59 AM   #69162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
I suck in sand too. It's always difficult on a heavy bike.

I don't have any additional advice but I did recently see a great explanation about why sand is such a bitch.

I think most of us are familiar with the 'trail' or 'caster' effect that keeps your from wheel pointed forward. Riding on flat ground the contact patch is behind the steering axis and the force on the contact patch adds a self centering effect to the steering.

When your front wheel is in deep sand the force where the tire contacts the sand is in front of the steering axis. You get a negative trail effect. With the contact force in front it makes the tire want to turn and the more it turns the stronger the turning force is applied to the tire. It wants to do anything but go straight. You can counteract this in a few ways.

1) Move as much weight as far back as possible. This will help stop the front tire from sinking into the sand as far which will lessen the negative trail effect.

2) Accelerate and stay on the gas. This will lighten the front end even more and help the front tire stay high enough to steer normally.

3) Go fast. If you go fast enough front wheel won't be able to sink into the sand and will steer normally.

Yeah, how fast do you want to crash? Like Grifter said, don't slow down suddenly. Chopping the throttle will bury the front wheel even deeper and the negative trail will steer the wheel right out from under you.

My sand riding hasn't gotten much better but I believe understanding what makes it difficult will help me develop my own techniques for getting through it.
Good advice. Another bit of good advice that transformed my sand riding is keeping head and eyes up and level, and not looking down at the wheel tracks you want to ride in. The old adage, you go where you're looking, and those wheel tracks in sand are rarely straight. If you have enough speed and keep the front light, the front tyre will plow the sand out of the way and track straight if you are looking ahead in the distance. EDIT: I've just looked back a few posts and someone has already said that. Tyre pressures make a difference too, more so than the type of tyre itself.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:56 AM   #69163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
I suck in sand too. It's always difficult on a heavy bike.

I don't have any additional advice but I did recently see a great explanation about why sand is such a bitch.

I think most of us are familiar with the 'trail' or 'caster' effect that keeps your from wheel pointed forward. Riding on flat ground the contact patch is behind the steering axis and the force on the contact patch adds a self centering effect to the steering.

When your front wheel is in deep sand the force where the tire contacts the sand is in front of the steering axis. You get a negative trail effect. With the contact force in front it makes the tire want to turn and the more it turns the stronger the turning force is applied to the tire. It wants to do anything but go straight. You can counteract this in a few ways.

1) Move as much weight as far back as possible. This will help stop the front tire from sinking into the sand as far which will lessen the negative trail effect.

2) Accelerate and stay on the gas. This will lighten the front end even more and help the front tire stay high enough to steer normally.

3) Go fast. If you go fast enough front wheel won't be able to sink into the sand and will steer normally.

Yeah, how fast do you want to crash? Like Grifter said, don't slow down suddenly. Chopping the throttle will bury the front wheel even deeper and the negative trail will steer the wheel right out from under you.

My sand riding hasn't gotten much better but I believe understanding what makes it difficult will help me develop my own techniques for getting through it.
Only one thing to say about this............... Canning Stock Route. After a week riding this you will be an expert sand rider. However exactly as Procycle has reported seems to best way. I also found to adopt the Motocross way of body English, either sitting or standing. Look ahead to where I was going, not where I was. Relax the grip and keep the elbows out. Keeping up enough speed to be safe but not so much that you over shoot the next corner. I found cresting one sand hill I backed off to look for 4x4's coming the other way, loaded up the front and buried the wheel up to the axel and did a perfect nose plant into the dune. As everyone has said above the best practice is, weight back, keep the power and speed up, look ahead and relax. The death grip on the bars just added to head shake and exhausts you all that much quicker. I will put up some helmet cam footage of an off the track excursion after I hit some ruts and a bush and ended up in the Spinafex and shrubs for a 50m jaunt. Also got a good shot of my brother going down that he caught on his cam. Will post as soon as I get it edited and work out how to. My advice to anyone thinking of doing the Stock Route would be to go down to your most popular fishing beach when the fish are running. Ride up and down amongst the fishermen dodge in and out amongst them. Do this a few times so they get real angry....... not just a little but real angry. Then let them bash you with their rods and buckets as you ride by. Do this for 1-2 weeks and you should be prepared for the shrub/tree/bush lined tracks of the CSR.
Cheers Richo
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Old 09-16-2012, 08:47 AM   #69164
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I'm sure this has been asked before, but searching through 4625 pages has yielded me no specifics so here goes.

I want a DR650. MrsDonkeys wants a dual-sport that we can both ride. Not 2 up, but both pilot. The problem is that she is 5'1" tall.

I'm seeing lowering links online for up to 4". For her to ride, we would need a target seat height of no more than 31". So for your experienced DR guys, how do the lowering links equate to seat height? Does a 4" drop get the seat height down below 31"?
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:06 AM   #69165
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Stock (low) seat height is 33.0" per the Suzuki website, if you aren't already aware. The factory low height doesn't include lowering links, but a change in the front spring set up and there is a low setting change to the rear shock assembly. There is also a factory low seat, which is approximately 1" lower than the stock seat. So, with the factory low suspension setting and the low seat you're at approximately 32". It's my understanding the factory low seat is also contoured a little different so it's easier to reach the ground. I don't know about lowering links, but 4" lowering links seems excessive considering you can get the bike to ~32" with factory parts.
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