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Old 09-18-2012, 07:42 AM   #16
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darmst6829 View Post
The physics of such an exaggerated turning technique escapes me and frankly it looks unnecessary.

Dave
Dave, how long you been riding trials?

Go see some videos on youtube, you will see from time to time, even Toni Bou has to use such techniques.

Here to be more specific, unfortunately this video is on a hill, but the priciple is EXACTLY the same, you let the bike lean, you move your body around to keep the bike balanced. http://vimeo.com/6957480 this guy 2 ply, he's got a lot of nice basic information and instruction videos on Vimeo. Remember, one is the "student" in the shots, so watch carefully. he's learning how to adjust his weight to keep the bike balanced in turns, be it flat ground or hillsides.

More: http://vimeo.com/9877206

one more: http://vimeo.com/2783291

Sting32 screwed with this post 09-18-2012 at 08:12 AM
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by YOUNZ View Post
I suppose one could do the same with a Honda Gold Wing or a Harley if they where an acrobat? World class!
Local Harley chapter, has events where we do a slow race. the techniques are similiar, but the fact that 99% of the riders do NOT outweigh a full dress harley davidson... However, means techniques work, but have to be modified a little since there is almost no way I can put 200lbs of my body weight on the right footpeg, to compensate for 900lbs of top heavy "HOG" headed to the ground on the left side...

But the practice does work, usually your sitting down, slipping your ass from side to side on the seat, trying to keep 900lbs as close to upright as possible so you can keep the behemoth, from overtaking your fractional of total bike and rider weight, and slamming you down to the earth. or putting your foot out to dab which means you lose.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darmst6829 View Post
The physics of such an exaggerated turning technique escapes me and frankly it looks unnecessary.

Dave
My son has been saying that for almost 13 years (as soon as he learned to talk). At each trials I watch him take all those unnecessary tabs. Last trials I rode my cota 200 in the same class with my son on a 300 raga. I beat him by 25 pts all were lack of exaggerated turns.
I prefer to clean the sections,some prefer to push the bikes. To each there own technique.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:19 PM   #19
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I'm glad to see people talk about turning. So many points are lost by poor hopping technique when a simple turn will do the job. I checked a section at the So Cal National. It had a simple "S" turn on the side of the hill. It should have been cleans all day. Instead I had to watch riders HOP N DAB and come out with a 3 before they even got to the hard part of the section. It hurt to watch.


HOPPING IS LIKE DANCING. DON'T DO IT IN PUBLIC UNLESS YOU'RE GOOD AT IT.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darmst6829 View Post
The physics of such an exaggerated turning technique escapes me and frankly it looks unnecessary.....Dave
I have been riding 10 months and used to think the same thing. I could do a tight turn at full lock in the yard going very slow. .... Which proved a useless skill a my first trials event in pine needles and rocks.

You turn the front too much it will plow sideway in loose dirt = dab.
You hit a rock going slow with the front turned it will stop the bike, push the rock, or shoot you off line, either way = dab or worse.

I have a steep creek bank with a fence at the top in my yard. You have to do a complete U-turn on the hillside. The fence at the top keeps you honest. If I turn the front at all it plows in the loose dirt. It is impossible to do clean without "exaggerated turning technique".

Riding Vintage/begginer day - advance line in our club turnning is all that matters. There are never any log jumps.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DrKayak View Post
I have been riding 10 months and used to think the same thing. I could do a tight turn at full lock in the yard going very slow. .... Which proved a useless skill a my first trials event in pine needles and rocks.

You turn the front too much it will plow sideway in loose dirt = dab.
You hit a rock going slow with the front turned it will stop the bike, push the rock, or shoot you off line, either way = dab or worse.

I have a steep creek bank with a fence at the top in my yard. You have to do a complete U-turn on the hillside. The fence at the top keeps you honest. If I turn the front at all it plows in the loose dirt. It is impossible to do clean without "exaggerated turning technique".

Riding Vintage/begginer day - advance line in our club turnning is all that matters. There are never any log jumps.
I'm confused by this post.

The technique IS very much right, your implementation might be lacking? if you get your weight right, I can turn full lock and still turn. Yes there is more than one way to accomplish this, however "THE OTHER" is an advanced way, something that you learn in the next lesson usually.

What I see happen is people want to skip the "dribbling" practice, they think they are too good at it or that it is unnecessary.

I and 50,000 people over the past 100 years of trials, would tell those people they are dead wrong. Sure, you'll (not you necessarily DrKyak, but other who read this reply) can and will argue from the beginners class for several years, then about 12 years into trials will post "why didnt anyone tell me" or "I just discovered something".

Mark my words... BASICS BASICS BASICS, TURN, TURN, TURNS & BALANCE, then THROTTLE CONTROL, then MORE TURNING, MORE BALANCE, then another skill is mixed into the tests... Everything to do with trials starts and ends with BALANCE and the ABILITY to make a turn. Sometimes that turn is in MID AIR (master & Pros), some times is on flat ground (novice).

Do the work, Nadia Comăneci didnt do what she did in her sport years ago by NOT learning and mastering the basics...
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:24 PM   #22
darmst6829
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[QUOTE=Sting32;19620874]Dave, how long you been riding trials?

Go see some videos on youtube, you will see from time to time, even Toni Bou has to use such techniques.

Here to be more specific, unfortunately this video is on a hill, but the priciple is EXACTLY the same, you let the bike lean, you move your body around to keep the bike balanced. http://vimeo.com/6957480 this guy 2 ply, he's got a lot of nice basic information and instruction videos on Vimeo. Remember, one is the "student" in the shots, so watch carefully. he's learning how to adjust his weight to keep the bike balanced in turns, be it flat ground or hillsides.

I am not sure how germane my years of experience are to the conversation and to me it sounds like you are ready to belittle me based on my experience. I was told to place the center of the arch of each foot as far out on the foot pegs as possible keep my knees away from the tank and bend them. Also to keep my elbows out and hold the grips tightly. Then keep my body vertical and move the bike around below as needed. The athletic position is the key as I understand it. I am just commenting that I have no idea how holding the bike at a crazy angle improves things especially traction and ones ability to react to sudden obstacles.

Dave
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:07 AM   #23
Sting32
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[QUOTE=darmst6829;19626070]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
Dave, how long you been riding trials?

Go see some videos on youtube, you will see from time to time, even Toni Bou has to use such techniques.

Here to be more specific, unfortunately this video is on a hill, but the priciple is EXACTLY the same, you let the bike lean, you move your body around to keep the bike balanced. http://vimeo.com/6957480 this guy 2 ply, he's got a lot of nice basic information and instruction videos on Vimeo. Remember, one is the "student" in the shots, so watch carefully. he's learning how to adjust his weight to keep the bike balanced in turns, be it flat ground or hillsides.

I am not sure how germane my years of experience are to the conversation and to me it sounds like you are ready to belittle me based on my experience. I was told to place the center of the arch of each foot as far out on the foot pegs as possible keep my knees away from the tank and bend them. Also to keep my elbows out and hold the grips tightly. Then keep my body vertical and move the bike around below as needed. The athletic position is the key as I understand it. I am just commenting that I have no idea how holding the bike at a crazy angle improves things especially traction and ones ability to react to sudden obstacles.

Dave
Dave,

Seriously no, but your 1st post was pretty unclear, and left me thinking it was a snarky remark to what was discussed. I'm a TRIALS Evangelist, Ill argue with TS who has ridden for years, like I do, but I wouldn't belittle a new rider. I hunt down and try to help get new riders! Jesus Chrysler. Yes, I would sneer at a smart assed comment though, that is what I thought I read in your post. I mean it is DOCUMENTED fact, that the technique is even on "THE TRIALS TRAINING CENTER" you know the "college for trials riders" and you say it looks ridiculous and not needed, sounded kind of iffy to me.

Maybe you need to rethink how it sounded to me, here in the trials forum. I can't help that you "cannot see" or accept that it is a SUPER usefull Basic skill, yet.

When I read that I wanted to blast ya a little, and then I rethought my approach. Your problem was obvious IN MY OPINION, that you had not had enough experience in trials, to know why learning to do what was in the video, was helpful. That Turn in the video, which I already had said was exaggerated, realistically in the 70's through the 80's this is how you made tight turns, because you didn't pull in on the clutch, nor hop. IT is why the old bikes have extra big flywheels, you let the clutch out to start the section, pulled it in to get your score punched at the end. It is why old school riders will beat most new riders everytime, that skill is used, a lot.

Most beginners are struggling with throttle control, using the clutch, brakes and add to that balance. if you learn how to move your body's weight around on the bike, you can turn in any environment, without the clutch.

Then you take this "skill" and modify it for so many other things you ca do with it. it is like dribbling a basket ball, if you can only dribble on your dominant hand, going forward, well that is a problem in a "game" unless you only sit on the bench, or wear the pom poms, that is. if you can dribble forward, backwards, other hand, behind the back, them skills come on handy, then you have a chance to use the shooting or passing skills and all that.

You just got to practice, and get the technique, then learn how to apply it to different situations. it is that simple. My main point is, it is a very useful skill as well as training tool. Don't refuse to learn things like this, some time very soon the light will come on. It takes months of riding for a beginner, to make all these ingredients blend together. I call it "making soup":

1. add water to a pot (buy a bike and gear)
2. Select your ingredients (learn how to balance going slow)
3. add ingredients like carrots, taters, meat, what have you (start learning the basic skills add them to things you can do and do easily)
4. add heat (practice practice practice)
5. add spices (learn some trick riding skills maybe)
6. allow this to cook for probably 2-3 hours. (have you ever tasted home made stew or soup, before it has even had a few minutes of cooking? IT tastes nothing like soup, it tastes like water and vegatables, and raw meat all "separate..." When it is done, it tastes like soup.

Riders need to get the basics, then cook for a while! it suddenly will "combine" and suddenly MOST riders can do things a little more each week that they never thought they would be good at.

Best part about this, and Im not making this up, I spent MANY MANY hours in the 70's and 80's riding my trials bike, in the single car garage and driveway, even when there was a foot of snow on the ground, practicing turns, and balance. your neighbors wont care, unless you make yourself an annoyance (loud or obnoxious)... This kind of stuff... IT is the foundation you got to get set, before you build.

Sting32 screwed with this post 09-19-2012 at 07:15 AM
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:19 AM   #24
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it all depends

If you are going slow you will want to look were the bike is going! Get your eyes looking ahead of the bike. Lean the bike by pushing into the tank with your knee so if you are turning left push your right knee into the tank and off set you ass to the right side of the seat as a counter balance. By doing this you can lean the bike but still keep your head, shoulders over the center of the bike. As the bars turn left or right you move you bottom to the oposite side of the bike while turning.

While you are doing this exercise work on clutch, rear brake and throttle control because if you do not have these novice moves mastered first you will struggle with riding any exercise or obsticle.

If you need more info contact me at

www.adverntureridersinternational.com

cheers

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Old 09-19-2012, 08:02 AM   #25
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventureridersinter View Post
If you are going slow you will want to look were the bike is going! Get your eyes looking ahead of the bike. Lean the bike by pushing into the tank with your knee so if you are turning left push your right knee into the tank and off set you ass to the right side of the seat as a counter balance. By doing this you can lean the bike but still keep your head, shoulders over the center of the bike. As the bars turn left or right you move you bottom to the oposite side of the bike while turning.

While you are doing this exercise work on clutch, rear brake and throttle control because if you do not have these novice moves mastered first you will struggle with riding any exercise or obsticle.

If you need more info contact me at

www.adverntureridersinternational.com

cheers

Lorne Banks
Factory Certified BMW Instructor
Lorne, I think you are telling people dead wrong technique. The only knee that should ever be near the tank, would be the inside one, because you are leaning the bike over that way.

Look at the video this post is talking about, you keep your knees bent and "bow legged" away from the tank, yet this leaves room for the bike to lean one way or the other. Another remark I want to correct is, you dont stick your butt out, you take your shoulders (with your butt directly under them) and move the body to shift the weight to the pegs. It is like a dance, not like some weird yoga like position.

not sticking things out extreme, makes it easier to switch sides or position, as well...
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:39 AM   #26
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Wow. Thanks for all the replies. A lot more to this than I expected including very different points of view. One thing that has helped me a lot here is when it was pointed out that the demonstration was "exaggerated". I was trying to do all turns this way and kept noticing that other, much better riders did not make the exaggerated moves for turns. This may be why I am still sore 3 days after my first practice session. Sting32 Thanks for the clear explanations I think I have a much better understanding and idea of how to practice turns now. I am going to just start with leaning the bike a bit and then work my way up to the exaggerated lean angles.

PS: Sorry for the late reply....did not mean to start a thread and abandon it but I have been busy acting as tour guide for visiting in-laws.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:59 AM   #27
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One reason for not seeing the exaggerated stance more is that good riders can get away with NOT doing it because they make up for it on EASY TO THEM sections by subtle body movement, and feel of controls that novices dont have. (any many will never have)

However, when you see them in a DIFFICULT FOR THEM section - you will find you see alot more exaggerated position. However - it may happen very quickly. Ask them to ride an easy off camber section one handed - and you'll see the exaggerated position as well.

My personal approach is to practice the exaggerated methods and then forget everything in competition, I find figure 8's on a steep, loose off camber keeps me honest.

Most of the really good riders will mirror what Sting said - practice the basics and work the foundation 1st.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:34 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by lamotovita View Post
When I started riding Trials at 40, after having ridden motorcycles since my early teens and going all the way through a racing career, I didn't learn to ride all over again, I learned how to ride for the first time.
Ditto. Amazed at how much OT taught me in a short period of time.

I had ridden/raced for 25 years in every genre of motorcycling... I thought I knew how to ride. Then I tried my hand at OT! It teachs (forces) you to learn everything about how a motorcycle reacts to the terrian and your input. This "re-learning" affected how I ride all bikes now... whether street or dirt.

I have been out of OT for almost 20 years now, but that training has stuck with me.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:49 AM   #29
motojunky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventureridersinter View Post
If you are going slow you will want to look were the bike is going! Get your eyes looking ahead of the bike. Lean the bike by pushing into the tank with your knee so if you are turning left push your right knee into the tank and off set you ass to the right side of the seat as a counter balance. By doing this you can lean the bike but still keep your head, shoulders over the center of the bike. As the bars turn left or right you move you bottom to the oposite side of the bike while turning.

While you are doing this exercise work on clutch, rear brake and throttle control because if you do not have these novice moves mastered first you will struggle with riding any exercise or obsticle.

If you need more info contact me at

www.adverntureridersinternational.com

cheers

Lorne Banks
Factory Certified BMW Instructor
Lorne,

If you're going to barge into a group with a first post hocking your wares (training courses), I'd suggest having a relevant answer and maybe even typing the link correctly.

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Old 09-19-2012, 09:05 PM   #30
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Thank you laser for typing what I * should have said* to begin with. you summed it up perfectly! And much more eloquent.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

I'm not trying to make anyone mad. darmst6829, let me know that he was NOT a "new to trials" rider, to which I publicly announce, well you and I can disagree anytime, I dont hold ill will to almost anyone, especially fellow trials riders. Ill save ill will for certain political people and stuff.

Darm6829 says that he's riding more twin shock pre 70's bikes, nowdays. This honestly threw me a little. On the no stop type events on bikes (that are run without clutches) it seems to me (from my testing and experience) that he'd of chimed in agreeing that the technique, is used in every section... But no.

But again I still believe the video of the turning techniques from TTC, were VERY exaggerated, for the point of showing you how it is done. I have shown all the riders I get started, almost the same thing, being extreme... This has been done for years, before I even knew the video existed. Everything we "train" with is like Laser17 (and others and thank you BTW) kind of agreed.

But also know this, IMHO when teaching someone new to this sport, AND because IMHO balancing in a turn is so fundamental, I have always felt you have them do it in a little "exaggerated form."

Why? what I find is after the "instruction" session, ALWAYS, they tend to relax back by at least 50%. This way, that 1/2 effort is still pretty good form. The next ride time, they will be down to 12%, and you have to make them re-emphasize the position again. Eventually the "natural" look is where they finally end up, that is if you are watchful trainer.

Plus, there are a hundred little tidbits and nuances that go along with this training technique, that I don't have time to write that novel right now, let alone feel I can relate it with a keyboard. But not completely unlike teaching someone how to write, physical things are something you get the body to get a "muscle memory" of. Remember kindergarten and writing your first "A"? they were 1-1.5 inches tall. you dont write that big now do you? I know my teacher is spinning in her grave, I write like a doctor, you cant even read what I print anymore, hardly unless I am being really careful. Same thing happens to trials riding and your techniques, if you dont become aware that it does happen.

Exaggerating the position feels very awkward at 1st, but like I said they relax a bit, and they have that image in their mind that they look like the video, we all know they dont look like the video...

hope that helps a little.

Sting32 screwed with this post 09-20-2012 at 07:25 AM
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