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Old 09-22-2012, 11:54 AM   #31
NMTrailboss
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:27 PM   #32
AteamNM
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A trials bike should be set up with one thing in mind. What position should you be in to be "neutral" over the bike. How does a boxer stand, a weight lifter, a surfer or a ballerina? The neutral position is where you are able to react and move your body in order to maintain balance. If your sparring and wrestling, you will be legs bent, arms bent, ready to move left, right, up, down, laterally and diagonally and pivot. You are able to fully extend, absorb, rotate, flex and react. Try standing with your feet together and let someone push your shoulder laterally. You will take a large step in order to regain balance or fall over. Now spread your feet apart and let them push with both hands. You will extend and react to the opposing force. Maintain your balanced position.

Neutral athletic balanced stance, applies in all sports, even yard darts. So with that in mind, understand that by reducing your flexed balance position by requiring you stand taller over your center of gravity, you have made the task of balance very difficult because you gave up your balanced stance; with the risers. If you bought the trials bike to ride TRAILS, then heck yea get comfortable, otherwise it is or should be a hindrance to a balanced position. The bike goes crazy underneath you while the body maintains a neutral and quiet position. Riding in any bike is all about rhythm and flow. Got to tune the instrument to get good rhythm and you can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish......

Try it and see is the best way to find out. Self guided discovery.
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:24 PM   #33
Gordy
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Amen, brother!

I know that you teach skiing. Can you imagine skiing standing up tall?

That is actually one of my worst habits. I tend to try and stand too tall with my legs not bent enough, but I'm working on it!
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:48 PM   #34
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Ever see me walk? I come by the correct stance naturally!
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:57 AM   #35
Mark_S
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Fwiw

Hi

I have a beta rev 3 that I use for trail riding. I fitted 2" rox risers set up to move the bars up about an 1" and forward about 1". It makes a very big difference to how long I can ride for (previously my lower back and hands would be killing me after 4 hrs or so riding). These risers are are the rubber mounted ones made for ATV's and work really well at dampening out the Betas high rev buzz on transport sections.

As a further heresy I'm considering fitting pivot pegs as they are so comfortable to stand on on my trail bike and adv bike - I'm sure that will get a few eye rolls as well from the purists.
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:55 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by AteamNM View Post
A trials bike should be set up with one thing in mind. What position should you be in to be "neutral" over the bike. How does a boxer stand, a weight lifter, a surfer or a ballerina? The neutral position is where you are able to react and move your body in order to maintain balance. If your sparring and wrestling, you will be legs bent, arms bent, ready to move left, right, up, down, laterally and diagonally and pivot. You are able to fully extend, absorb, rotate, flex and react. Try standing with your feet together and let someone push your shoulder laterally. You will take a large step in order to regain balance or fall over. Now spread your feet apart and let them push with both hands. You will extend and react to the opposing force. Maintain your balanced position.

Neutral athletic balanced stance, applies in all sports, even yard darts. So with that in mind, understand that by reducing your flexed balance position by requiring you stand taller over your center of gravity, you have made the task of balance very difficult because you gave up your balanced stance; with the risers. If you bought the trials bike to ride TRAILS, then heck yea get comfortable, otherwise it is or should be a hindrance to a balanced position. The bike goes crazy underneath you while the body maintains a neutral and quiet position. Riding in any bike is all about rhythm and flow. Got to tune the instrument to get good rhythm and you can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish......

Try it and see is the best way to find out. Self guided discovery.

Spot on.............fitting risers makes a bike pretty much useless for serious trials, but as its something thats very easy to do, is pretty popular with those in the "know"...........
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:00 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
Hi

I have a beta rev 3 that I use for trail riding. I fitted 2" rox risers set up to move the bars up about an 1" and forward about 1". It makes a very big difference to how long I can ride for (previously my lower back and hands would be killing me after 4 hrs or so riding). These risers are are the rubber mounted ones made for ATV's and work really well at dampening out the Betas high rev buzz on transport sections.

As a further heresy I'm considering fitting pivot pegs as they are so comfortable to stand on on my trail bike and adv bike - I'm sure that will get a few eye rolls as well from the purists.
No eye roll here. For what you are using the bike for, it sounds great! Beta makes the long range tank/seat deal, are you considering it for the trail riding?
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #38
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Very good AteamNM, that first paragraph was brilliant.
But then you got in to opinion and bias.

I'm 54 years old, 6ft 1, and 85 kg. For 15 years I've been a time-trial cyclist (think tucked-in, aero) I know quite a lot about making things fit and extracting the best bio-mechanical output from a given stance or position.

In moto bikes, as with push bikes, there is not a One-Size-Fits-All solution. They make bikes, and then it's up to the owner (or supplier there-of) to, make them fit to their body type, style of riding etc.

I don't think you're alone in thinking that everyone who ever saddled up a trials bike wants to be the next Tony Bou, but I also don't think you're in the majority.

You may well have a young and un-injured back, your knees are hopefully in good condition, hands and elbows all tip-top. Good for you, you go ahead and ride your bike your way. Meanwhile there are other people who aren't perfect young specimens, who cant ride round all day leaned forward with their hands not much higher than mid-thigh, who will benefit from some knowledgable help with bike set-up.

I believe this to be a friendly sport, and have certainly found this to be so locally, where help and advice are given generously.

DERISION OF THE NEW AND UNSKILLED, is on the list to become the next deadly sin.






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Old 09-23-2012, 04:14 PM   #39
AteamNM
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^^^^

What, huh? Derp derp.

Did you read what I said?

Quote:
If you bought the trials bike to ride TRAILS, then heck yea get

comfortable,
If you ride trials on a modern trials bike then your making it harder, especially on a tight off camber turn. A moto trials event allows you to ride, rest, stop, walk, drink a beer, whatever. Unless the event is like a Ute Cup, there should not be a large fatigue factor. Do you want to be comfortable riding to each section and then ride like crap in the section or ride a bit uncomfortable getting to the section and then be set up to ride the trials like a boss?

I also said ?
Quote:
Try it and see is the best way to find out. Self guided discovery.
I never once said that you can't put FFKKing ape hangers on your bike. I know some really old national riders and they school me and a few are over weight but mostly in good physical condition. And yes, I am a young little pup and can run triathlons. I have never wrecked or abused my body.


Note to self, if a valid learning questions is asked, do not reply.
Note to self, if a valid learning questions is asked, do not reply.
Note to self, if a valid learning questions is asked, do not reply.
Note to self, if a valid learning questions is asked, do not reply.
Note to self, if a valid learning questions is asked, do not reply.

AteamNM screwed with this post 09-23-2012 at 04:19 PM
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Old 09-23-2012, 04:47 PM   #40
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I get the feeling that many riders fit ape risers, before actually trying to ride a bike with normal height bars for a reasonable amount of time? Risers tend to mean less weight on the front wheel, COG not quite right, and steering that feels vague and disconnected when compared to normal bars.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:24 PM   #41
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[QUOTE=Ccino;19661685]Very good AteamNM, that first paragraph was brilliant.
But then you got in to opinion and bias.

I'm 54 years old, 6ft 1, and 85 kg. .

Who will benefit from some knowledgable help with bike set-up.

I believe this to be a friendly sport, and have certainly found this to be so locally, where help and advice are given generously.

DERISION OF THE NEW AND UNSKILLED, is on the list to become the next deadly sin.(QUOTE)
Ccinco glad to see you riding trials! You are just a little smaller than A-team and in good shape, but you sound a little beat up like me. It is hard to ride in pain, but proper set up never changes to compete in trials. Bar height can change,peg height can change to an extent. The proper feel from the mounting locations have there limits. Risers just are not the cure. Trouble with most new riders is they bring bad habits from years of riding and do not want to be told they have been always wrong. I always like to ask a street rider how the proper way is to turn on a fast curve, 95% do not have a clue.(It is not lean and turn.)
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:17 PM   #42
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Just my 2 cents. I rode trials 20 years ago and just got back into it 4 months ago. I have done 8 contests so far and done well in each of them. I am 45 as of today and the best adjustment I made on my bike was to raise the bars 1/2". This made me more comfortable allowing me to ride longer as well as better. I say try it if it does not work for you by all means change it back. For me it was night and day difference on my back.
Mike
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:09 PM   #43
Gordy
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Really? A 1/2" rise made it like night and day?

PS; are your backs that bad that a 1/2 -1" rise makes that much difference in your trail (not trial) riding?
I think that my Alpinestars boots are 1/2" higher in the soles than my Gaernes. I should have raised the bars to get my world right again!

Are we talking observed trials at a decent class level or mostly guys riding around on trials bikes?

I've had this discussion with dirt bikers with about the same results.

There have been some very good riders in this thread giving free and good advice. You guys jack up your bikes any way you want! At least we are all riding!
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:29 PM   #44
lineaway
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What is even funnier about risers. Go measure peg height compared to bar height of any 1985 trials bike to a modern bike and it now favors the taller rider by leaps and bounds!!!! Go ride any twin shock and you will see what `bent` over `was`!
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:08 PM   #45
motojunky
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Originally Posted by AteamNM View Post
A moto trials event allows you to ride, rest, stop, walk, drink a beer, whatever. Unless the event is like a Ute Cup, there should not be a large fatigue factor.
You sure about that? At the end of a trial (at least the hot summer events), I feel pretty thoroughly whooped. It's not uncommon for my fourth loop score to show the fatigue too. In fact, I flat-out fell apart at the last event with loop scores of 3,2,5 and 14. I was having a really good ride for the first 3/4 of the day...

I need to learn to relax when I ride.
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