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Old 09-24-2012, 02:38 AM   #91
PSYCHO II
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Originally Posted by dolomoto View Post
Ah, nicely played.

The OP has said she is satisfied, and moving on.

If folks would like to debate the dangers of taking an MSF course....I'm up for it...on another thread.

Good on the OP for realizing that the MSF training is "one size fits all" but is not best for all.

Fair weather and smooth roads to all riders. Ride Often and minimize your Risks!
So your 100% is 100% bullshit. What a troll. You give with one hand and wank with the other.

100% success rate in sucking people in.

But on a more serious note I believe that she would deserve a refund if the standard of the class was advertised as "novice" and the instructor decided that the others were being "held back" because of one person. Assuming that even though they were taking longer their progression was within the time frames allocated.

If on the other hand she was in a course for "riders with certain experience" then the time frames and criteria would not be the same and she may have not been up to the entry standard required. A "sheep in wolves clothing" to turn a phrase about. Then of course it would be out the door. No trolls in this training course... goodnight Doreen.

A trainer is someone who can take a person that can not do a task and transform that person into someone who can do the task. There is no guarantee of 100% success.

A trainer is NOT someone who watches some other person perform a task and then believed that they have trained them if they only simply asked them to do it. That is truly the sign of a wanker. Training is about tuition and corrective action and then observing the result that meets a specified level of outcome. Just watching is just a voyeur and there are many voyeur videos out there. Be careful if you Google "voyeur videos" the content may not be about motorcycling.... but I think I mentioned wankers previously.

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Old 09-24-2012, 05:38 AM   #92
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Interesting discussion in-between the name calling. I think there are two sides to this story, and it's unfortunate we'll never know what the other side was thinking. This year I began instructing with this organization: http://www.putonthebrakes.com/ We teach high school teens skills that hopefully keep them from killing themselves in the first few years of driving. I really enjoy it, and it's taught me quite a bit about instructing people with wildly varying skill sets. I'll allow that teaching the parents would probably be vastly different. My favorite students are typically the girls (and no, not because I'm a perv). They are usually there because their folks made them come. They aren't there to show off like the boys. Most of them develop a sharp focus and determination to master the skill that is just amazing to watch. I've told a few of the quiet ones after the drills they are ready for car commercial stunts because they are that good. OTOH, I've had some boys that I cringe the thought of having to share the road with. Most listen but some don't. One poor soul, a minority with a single mom parent probably would not pass his DOT driving test without some serious one-on-one instruction, and I told his Mom he needed more training (the only parent I felt I had to do that with). Mom was teaching him, but she was so nervous she drove him bat-shit paranoid, hence his terrible driving. I can't fix that in a 20 minute accident avoidance session.

Before I became a sports car road racer, I had to go through a lot of instruction. One of the things the chief instructor always said was that some people will be coded OSB: Other Sports Beckon. Meaning, not everyone is capable of passing. Tough pill to swallow for the participant, and a difficult discussion to have as an instructor.

My MSF experience was a good one for the most part. About 4 people (definitely new Sportster owners) quit after the first classroom session because they thought it was 'stupid'. Good riddance. The rest of us went through the course and everyone passed. A couple struggled, and they got a little extra help. I did very well (lots of dirt experience in my youth) and didn't need much attention, though I did learn several things. One instructor was horribly vanilla; dull, didn't give much feedback and wasn't particularly good at explaining something that he couldn't read from the manual. Not a bad guy, just not a great instructor. The other guy was vastly better; a natural born teacher and knew how to encourage people even when they were doing poorly.

The MSF course itself is VERY basic at it's beginning, and most people should have no trouble getting through it. If they can't handle the clutch or walking the bike, well...OSB. However, you don't bring someone to tears bitching and yelling about their ineptitude. A good instructor knows how to handle that. Each class and each instructor will be different. I wouldn't dismiss the entire MSF course based on one questionable instructor.
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Old 09-24-2012, 06:45 AM   #93
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And maybe, just maybe the OP was too dense to get the hint that she wasn't catching on and never would in the timeframe allotted. The RC had to use one syllable words to get his point across and she got butthurt over it. I took the course several years ago and watched a young lady catapult herself and the course bike across a grass median, two sections of parking lot and into a car before cartwheeling quite spectacularly. She was sent home, along with three others who didn't get it. The course is taught to keep those capable of mechanical interaction interested and weed out the inept. She got voted off the island.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:57 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dolomoto View Post
I reckon we'll just have to disagree. I can name 3-4 other RC who've also never counseled a rider out.

If you're gonna call me a Liar, just go ahead and do so.

I cut my teeth on the RSS and then transitioned to the BRC/ERC and watched many fine Instructors quit rather than "facilitate" the riders in BRC. As for me, helping riders learn life saving skills became a passion.

I've started classes early and went as late as 8pm if the rider was willing to stay.

I really hate to hear about the RC's that think just because they are a RC, then they know best.

IMO, counseling a rider out is a failure on the RC. We're not teaching people to build the space shuttle, we're helping riders learn Basic motorcycle skills. Maybe more RC's should run the exercises longer...or even run them twice instead of "counseling" riders out.
You sound like you've spent some time in the military training to standard and not to time and given enough attention to the standard, almost anyone can pick up a new skill. Good on ya'. I just took my ERC (AGAIN...!) to meet US Army requirements. To be honest, I was dreading it since I just took the Total Control before coming back to Germany. Have to say, the instructor today was a breath of fresh air. Motorad Action Team has the MSF contract here in Germany, so I got a German trained expert who had the time and patience to help expand on the Total Control training AND let me practice a better skill set while still meeting the MSF guidelines. Truly refreshing. He did have to ask me to slow it down a tick on the turning exercises, but provided great feedback on cornering and body position. He could also relate the physics behind the maneuver in order to explain why the technique does what is does. That may be because he was a German AF fighter pilot though.

Hate to hear the OP's experience with MSF - I'm not a fan of the curriculum, but it is a good method to learn or improve a teachable skill. Hope she gets back in the saddle sooner rather than later.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:10 AM   #95
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Heck my ex ole lady even passed the class and day 1 to 1.5 was all about getting into her pants. So bad vibes on both ends. It took till 1/2 way through day two she finally told him if he doesn't lighten up and back off and she can't kick his arse she'll gut an fillet him before he hits the ground.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:11 AM   #96
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I signed up for a beginner MSF course which started today to learn how to ride, and much to my surprise I was so unlucky to receive the MSF instructor from HELL. I was in a class of 8 people. There was an extra person in the class that had not signed up prior to. I think he was a friend of the instructor because he came in late and did not get dismissed as the rules say. The course was not at all as I expected. I have alway been a passenger on bikes and had no riding experience. When I paid for the class, I confirmed that the class was for beginners who had no riding experience and was told that was correct. The first part of the class today was supposed to be class instruction but consisted of the class finding answers to the review questions in the back of the MSF book and watching a few videos. It was not exactly a detailed, informative session as I had expected. After lunch, we went out to get on the bikes. The instructor proceeded to fly through the controls and the process of cranking the bikes. He then had us to briefly practice with the clutch and do the power walk, After doing the power walk a few times, he informed me that he did not feel I was learning the process. I explained that I signed up for a beginner course but was made to feel like I was holding the class up. Instead of patiently working through the process with me, the instructor was a very impatient jerk. I was one of two people in the class that had no riding experience. All the others had riding experience. He was letting the ones with riding experience determine his class. I feel like only BEGINNERS should be allowed in the BEGINNER class. This was a very bad experience for me, but he did not break my spirit of learning to ride. Not sure if I will learn through another MSF course. My tolerance for jerks gets lower as I get older.
First, let me say that I have not read the entire thread, but that I was so upset by your comments that I have simply jumped in to reply:

This is EXACTLY what happened to my wife when we attempted the class together, with my Father-In-Law. We were excited to have the opportunity to share the learning experience and found the group to be much too large (18+) with four or five instructors that we all rushing to keep a schedule and not worried about teaching the riders that were actually beginners. My wife bailed on the class within the first hour and I was ready to lay hands on someone because of the way they made my wife and best friend feel like an idiot.

I found out, after the class, that the instructors were being evaluated on their presentation and ability to perform by their superiors, and as a result, completely lost sight of the objective of the class.

Boy, I was hot. I finished the class, because of the cost invested, but my wife was unable to proceed. At this point, I am not surprised to hear of your experience. I will offer an apology to you and others who have had this experience. It's too bad that this program is suffering because the premise is good, but I believe that they have lost the purpose and spirit of teaching. My wife never received an apology from anyone that day, or afterwards. It still make me mad, so I can empathize with your comments and feelings.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:35 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Bill_Z View Post
This is EXACTLY what happened to my wife when we attempted the class together, with my Father-In-Law. We were excited to have the opportunity to share the learning experience and found the group to be much too large (18+) with four or five instructors that we all rushing to keep a schedule and not worried about teaching the riders that were actually beginners.
Wait. Were there 18+ motorcycles?
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:44 AM   #98
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Is that big? I don't recall exactly, but my class must have had at least a dozen, maybe more than 15. We did divide into two groups, but I think everybody was supplied their own bike. (This was a private class where you actually got your M endorsement if you passed).

I'm not sure why this discussion got so polarized. Clearly, there's occasions where people need to be sent home. But there's no reason people shouldn't be treated with respect (unless they're disrespectful). I'm sure that happens 95%+ of the time. But just like life, some people are jerks or have bad days. Sometimes personalities just don't mix.

I still feel comfortable recommending an MSF class. I imagine some of those that rightfully fail get something out of it - including the realization that motorcycling may not be meant for them. But they should have a meaningful chance at learning.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:58 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Z View Post
First, let me say that I have not read the entire thread, but that I was so upset by your comments that I have simply jumped in to reply:

This is EXACTLY what happened to my wife when we attempted the class together, with my Father-In-Law. We were excited to have the opportunity to share the learning experience and found the group to be much too large (18+) with four or five instructors that we all rushing to keep a schedule and not worried about teaching the riders that were actually beginners. My wife bailed on the class within the first hour and I was ready to lay hands on someone because of the way they made my wife and best friend feel like an idiot.

I found out, after the class, that the instructors were being evaluated on their presentation and ability to perform by their superiors, and as a result, completely lost sight of the objective of the class.

Boy, I was hot. I finished the class, because of the cost invested, but my wife was unable to proceed. At this point, I am not surprised to hear of your experience. I will offer an apology to you and others who have had this experience. It's too bad that this program is suffering because the premise is good, but I believe that they have lost the purpose and spirit of teaching. My wife never received an apology from anyone that day, or afterwards. It still make me mad, so I can empathize with your comments and feelings.
I'm very sorry to hear about this and other poor experiences with MSF. I can't relate to how the coaches might have been behaving as I have no personal experience with mass "bail-outs" from a class. I also am reading a number of reports in this thread of coaches belittling students, making them cry, etc. I am sure it happens but would bet that most cases are largely the result of factors other than the coach.

While I have occasionally found a (female) student close to tears in frustration as they desperately strive to master new skills, I have only come across a handful who claimed that some instructor made them cry by shouting at them. I DO point out that "If you hear me raising my voice it is because you are on a running motorcycle and wearing a helmet. I am shouting TO you, not AT you." If someone still ends up tearful, patient inquiry has ALWAYS revealed a reason other than the coaching, such as "My husband will be SO mad at me if I fail this - he already bought me a bike and I'm scared of it because it's so heavy", etc. There are also people who show up for class tired, hungry, hung over, high, etc., or with some other self-inflicted burden.

It seems as if you might have been a student in a Ridercoach training class, where new coaches are being put through their paces with real live students, delivering a real live BRC. In my experience, the students get excellent attention in such courses because of the additional coaches, and the watchful eye of the Ridercoach Trainers to keep everyone in line. A Ridercoach Trainer class is even more interesting because you have trainee Trainers, training trainee Coaches, training students, all being watched by the top level instructors. It doesn't seem to diminish the experience for most students, however.

The maximum number of students allowed on a training range is 12 although I can understand how it might feel like more when there is a lot of action going on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Z View Post
I found out, after the class, that the instructors were being evaluated on their presentation and ability to perform by their superiors, and as a result, completely lost sight of the objective of the class.
This statement makes no sense as the coaches should have been MORE aware of the objective of the class and MORE attentive to the needs of every student. It's hard to say for certain, not having been there, but I strongly suspect there were other factors you were not tuned in to, that led to your wife bailing within an hour.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:14 AM   #100
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There is a lot that people assume about the relationship between MSF and the RC in a parking lot that generally isn't correct.

MSF develops the curriculum and provides materials and training on how to use them (see below).

RCs very rarely work for MSF- they work for themselves or the person that has the contract to run that site.

The person running the site is repsonsible for ensuring that they follow the state's guidelines for training. Policy on dismissing students is a combination of the local state and the local site.

The state typically has a small staff of people to ensure compliance and train new instructors. The training staff is trained by MSF.

So, it's all pretty disjointed. How it works in Georgia is not how it works in WA; how it works at one site in Texas may not how it works five miles away.

Oregon and Idaho are exceptioins, not only do they not use MSF materials, they have one program that covers the entire state, instructors work for the program. (I think there are a few other states like this as well.)

So the person to complain to is probably the local site franchisee, and maybe the state coordinator's office- although a friend used to work for the state office, and when he said something to a site franchisee, they told him "yeah, OK, sure, uh-huh,, go away now"- because they knew nobody was going to replace them, so the state really had no power.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:58 PM   #101
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I'm going to say something that you're probably not going to like. The street isn't the place for ANYONE to learn how to ride a motorcycle.

Go buy yourself a used 100cc dirtbike and the appropriate gear then go find a field and lean how to ride the thing without seriously hurting yourself. I can promise you that you are going to fall down. Once you get good on the 100 go back and take the course on a steet bike. Most beginners I see start out on way too much bike. I can't tell you how many folks I see starting out on big, heavy street bikes they have no business on.

I started both my son and daughter out on the 50. My son started when he was 4. Now that he's 16 and has 12 years of riding under his belt I still have really mixed feelings about him riding on the street.

Don't give up. Good Luck
Whatever. I learned to ride by taking the MSF course. I bought a 650 Suzuki Bandit as my first bike. I would come home after work and practice riding around the streets in the Oakland Hills in CA until I felt comfortable with controlling the bike. then I ventured out onto the highway, which scared the crap out of me the first time. But I just kept riding and practicing until everything became second nature. Within two weeks I was commuting into San Francisco from Oakland, and soon after that was comfortable enough to lane split. I was an adult when I learned and had plenty of common sense and a healthy dose of fear. I did not have parents that allowed me near motorcycles growing up so did not have the luxury of having ridden ten years before getting my MC endorsement. My point is not everyone has the luxury of being able to learn on a dirt bike and then move on but if you use restraint and common sense you can find a way that works.

Good luck!!!!
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:13 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
So, it's all pretty disjointed. How it works in Georgia is not how it works in WA; how it works at one site in Texas may not how it works five miles away.

Oregon and Idaho are exceptioins, not only do they not use MSF materials, they have one program that covers the entire state, instructors work for the program. (I think there are a few other states like this as well.)
A program that covers the entire State... wow perhaps a program that covers the entire Country. Nah... Ad Hoc pandemonium is the way we do it in this world ... what a joke... what confusion. All because trainers can't agree on a single syllabus....

And then each state argues that there is no statistical evidence to prove that their method increases the risk to the rider. What is evident is the confusion between states. Oh.... did you think I was talking about the 50 States of the USA... nah I was talking about the half dozen States of Oz. You'd think that such a small number would have little variation. Not the case.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:55 AM   #103
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Similiar thing happened when I did my BRC. But the gender roles where switched.

Even though I had already been riding for years I thought it would be cool to check it out. Besides myself there were a couple of other riders that were obviously not beginners.

One of our instructors was a female and was an absolute BeYOtch to myself and the other more advanced riders (all male), even though we were actually trying to help some of the ones that were struggling.

Would scream at us for dragging pegs and would not let the fact that I am a two finger brake guy go. That is how I cover the brake to this day, one or two fingers. She actually said that I was going to be in a wheelchair if I continued to brake like that.....

And no! None of us were "showing off"!

On the upside a guy on an old Dyna was teaching an advanced course in the same lot on Saturday. Talked him into letting me run the course after my beginners class was over. It was an MF'er on the 954RR. But he made it look like childs play on that big ole wide glide.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:26 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by hooliken View Post
Similiar thing happened when I did my BRC. But the gender roles where switched.

Even though I had already been riding for years I thought it would be cool to check it out. Besides myself there were a couple of other riders that were obviously not beginners.

One of our instructors was a female and was an absolute BeYOtch to myself and the other more advanced riders (all male), even though we were actually trying to help some of the ones that were struggling.
So you signed up to be a student, then promoted yourself to RiderCoach, and they had a problem with that? Huh.
Quote:
Would scream at us for dragging pegs and would not let the fact that I am a two finger brake guy go. That is how I cover the brake to this day, one or two fingers. She actually said that I was going to be in a wheelchair if I continued to brake like that.....
So you signed up to be a student, then chose not to attempt learning something different? Huh.

I wasn't there, so I can't evaluate your actual braking skill (which I'm sure is awesome squared). Maybe she had a point to make. From the cheap seats, it certainly sounds like your skills are inflexible, which implies limited.

Quote:
And no! None of us were "showing off"!
Nah. Just dragging pegs and trying impart how smart you are by coaching other students- possibly confusing them. Got it.

Quote:
On the upside a guy on an old Dyna was teaching an advanced course in the same lot on Saturday. Talked him into letting me run the course after my beginners class was over. It was an MF'er on the 954RR. But he made it look like childs play on that big ole wide glide.
So you think you're all that, but can't make a sportbike do what an RC (probably a fat old guy to boot) on a Harley can do. Got it.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:32 AM   #105
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Would scream at us for dragging pegs and would not let the fact that I am a two finger brake guy go. That is how I cover the brake to this day, one or two fingers.
One finger? Please take video showing your proficient braking skills. Maybe someone can quote me the "standard" for stopping distance from 40/45mph and you can stripe that out.
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