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Old 09-30-2012, 04:15 PM   #31
TNC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
I am not amazed by the Freeride. For the hard core offroad dual sport rider it isn't all about power. Maybe not even mostly about power. Yes, I am the first one in line for big power for a road going, traveling sort of dual sport. As good as my 640E is offroad, it rarely even sees third gear on tough single track.

For a single track rider it is more about light weight, compact size and real offroad suspension. No one can argue that light weight and top shelf suspension on dual sports are two concepts utterly lost on the Japanese. But, KTM gets it. Hard core trail riding is the market they understand and flat out own.

And, to a guy with a plated 200 pound racer in the garage, the Freeride looks like a bullseye. My MXC is basically a place holder for a real 50 state legal light weight dual sport. I don't know if that will be the Freeride, the rumored Husky two stroke or something else. But that kind of bike will be in my garage for trails.
No, you may have misunderstood my comment. In a street legal setup, it's probably the bike I and perhaps many others have been wanting for some years now. My amazement lies in the fact that someone may actually make it.

In the mid-80's, I recall seeing a big writeup in Cycle magazine where a guy did an excellent install of an XR250R engine into a current CR125 frame. The quality was equal to or maybe exceeded a factory build. Even then I think there was a market for a more docile but effective powerplant in a top flight chassis, and there has been little if any bikes of that kind of quality in the ensuing 25 or so years. My '06 KLX, now highly modded, does a pretty good job as it was based on an actual off road bike, but the KLX300 wasn't a KX level chassis and suspension, no matter how you look at it. This Freeride may actually be it.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:35 PM   #32
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I did. Too much multi-tasking bewtween football, CAD work and ADVRider. The only issue I have with the Freeride is pricing. But it is a KTM. There is a reason I buy them used. I need deep pocket early adopters to buy a bunch once they get here.

I put about 50 miles on the bikes today. The first 15 were on the MXC. I can honestly say that was more than enough street miles on that banshee. That is why the Freeride appeals to me. Same light weight with much better manners. I don't want to race, I just want the light weight.

I just can't figure out why Yamaha saddled the WR250R with all that extra tonnage. They came so close in so many other ways. It isn't that much less expensive than a KTM. So it seems like they could have done much better. But the Japanese just won't do it for some reason.

It used to drive me nuts until I finally threw in the towel and drank the orange Koolaid.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:36 PM   #33
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i use my 450 xc-w for commuting and road trips (as well as single-track, hare scrambles, offroad exploring, etc. etc.).

i rarely ride my DRZ anymore, except at night (because the KTM stock headlight sucks...that is one real issue--but it can be addressed).

i've done 300 mile road days on the xc-w and loved it. the bike is so ridiculously fun to ride. for me, i just need to wear padded bicycle shorts, but the seat is probably not for everyone. however, you can always replace it with a more cushy one.

the maintenance is no big deal.

it is a way better bike in every way than either a DRZ or a WR250R (i have ridden one) except for maintenance intervals (but they aren't bad at all) and the headlight (which, on mine at least, sucks for riding on the road outside of a lit up city at night).

the KTM is better on the highway, it is better in the city, it is better on a MX track, it is better on quad trails, it is better on single track, etc. etc. better by a lot.

if you can afford it, get the KTM. if the price of a new WRR is the limit of your budget, spend the price of a new WRR on a used EXC/plated XC-W instead. seriously.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:40 PM   #34
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And a Renazco or SDG seat. Seriously.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:53 PM   #35
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And a Renazco or SDG seat. Seriously.
You guys need to ride mountainbikes. Then every motorcycle saddle feels like a Barcalounger.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:57 PM   #36
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Just did a 450 mile day. Prescott to GC & back on my old 1995 Honda/Japanese XR650L. 75% off road. Still one of the best DS bikes ever made for this old man
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:23 PM   #37
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I have a WRR and sold my European 450, the WRR is a very good dualsport. It is made to putt around on and does it quite well as you know.
I also wanted a lighter bike and more power, the 450 sure had both, but it was tiring to putt around on.
I was much more comfortable on the WRR then the 450.
The engine was soo much smoother for long rides, it didn't try to kill you if you accidently bumped the throttle and it actually felt as light as the 450 and was physically smaller which I liked on the single track.
I was using both as dual sports and the WRR was better at it.
I kept the WRR and sold the 450.
The WRR is the Jeep compared to KTM baja truck.
If you want to dual sport around get the WRR. If you want a high performance race bike get the KTM.
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:43 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by montesa_vr View Post
When I grow up I want to be as brave as you.

When you get a little older and wiser, having the biggest baddest fastest whatever isn't all that matters!
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rickcj7 screwed with this post 10-01-2012 at 05:46 PM
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:47 PM   #39
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Get the 500. I've had a 690 since July 2009 and love it. If I got any other bike it would be the 500. I love the 690 and can only imagine how the 500 must be-lighter and similar power. Crazy!
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:39 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by rickcj7 View Post
When you get a little older and wiser, having the biggest baddest fastest whatever isn't all that matters!

Its funny how some people insist on the fastest top of the line bike etc... and then walk out of the trailer and hop into their old S-10.
It's not just about the power. Its about a top-quality build with aftermarket parts stock, brakes and suspension that does not need upgrading, a pipe that's every bit as good and as light as an aftermarket unit, 50lbs less than a similar DS, etc etc.

I ride like a granny, but when I needed to get up a hill or over a log or obstacle I could just blip the throttle and lift the wheel.

It's not about speed.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:51 PM   #41
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In summary...

Sorry, I was away for the day, and this discussion took off!

Montessa, yes I know. The WRR is 25% of an R-1, which doesn't lend itself well or easily to a WR450R equivalent. You could either "scale it up", which is a new engine, or make a 500cc p-twin (a Yamaha / reliable version of the RXV/SXV). Either would be a DS and not a Race bike - Not a KTM.

Yes, the WRR is a DS. And the KTM is a high spec Race Bike. DS bikes work better a slow to moderate pace. Race bikes work better at a fast pace. How do you ride? The overlap is getting better with the new KTMs, which makes my choice harder, actually. I need a subframe and a high output alternator. (Or a WRR or TE630 or DR).

In the middle for 250cc's - I could add high spec components to a DS bike. Still not light weight - you can't fight mass. But better? I go back and forth: can I make a Silk Purse from a Sow's Ear? With unlimited money, just buy the race bike and do (or pay for) the maintenance. With limited money, how good can you make it? For me the arguement is more critical in a small, high spec street bike (250-400cc), as some of you already know from that thread. With a thumper, the mods seem more worthwhile to me. But that's just me.

So let me ask a question? Can you really upgrade the suspension on a WRR to KTM levels? I guess the answer is yes, and that the limit is money, but I don't know for sure. Then, the KLX-250 has a 351cc kit. The DR650 has a 790 kit. But the WRR only has a 290 Athena kit. Why? I suspect the reason is the R-1 technology from which the WRR engine is derived. Which begs the question: what happens when Kawasaki adds fuel injection to the KLX? And then the next set up is a KTM 350 EXC-F or XC-W.

Freeride lovers, I'm with you, but the lack of a rear subframe to keep weight so low also limits my applications.

Freeride lovers, remember that the orginal 24 hp number for the Freeride has been superceded by KTM. In the UK, they found too many complaints, so they changed the factory tune to 30 hp. So now, think KTM Freeride = 30 hp.

Finally, where is the trickle-down from the 450cc displacement limit in the Dakar classes? [Skip the discussion of BMW X-bikes and Husky 449/511 - they don't cut it anywhere]. Does that leave the KTM 500 EXC / XC-W?

PS. I'm still watching evolving 2-stroke technology. Very promising. But still 3-5 years out, so not of so much interest in discussions like this one.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:15 PM   #42
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Gryphon, the '06/'07 KLX's were about the best 250 Japanese DS bike because they had 11" of travel to start with, and you can take all the Race Tech springs and Gold Valve kits for the KLX300 and install them. Then you slap on a 300, 331, or 351 cylinder with a full exhaust and TM36 pumper carb, and you have an extremely good streetable and dirt worthy bike with low maintenance and long term durability. With my aftermarket full Muzzy exhaust and ditching the stupidly heavy stock instrument panel for a Vapor unit, you're probably easily at or under 300 pounds of honest weight...with e-start. The problem with all this? If you're not a gearhead and don't do the more technical work on your bike, this is probably too expensive a pursuit on this bike to have all this work done for you. No, it's not a KTM, never will be, but it's an excellent true DS bike that is quite capable even in some gnarly off road conditions. I can live with this bike until the Freeride or something similar at that level comes out.

That 30 horsepower rating on the Freeride still indicates a highly understressed KTM engine IMO. The lack of a subframe isn't a deal breaker for me.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:24 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
DS bikes work better a slow to moderate pace. Race bikes work better at a fast pace.
i disagree completely.

imho, the lighter weight, better balance, and better suspension of a KTM make it work better at slow to moderate pace than a WRR, DRZ, etc.

in what way does a WRR (or DRZ or whatever) work better than an EXC at slow to moderate pace?

honestly, i don't get what anyone means when they say that. having ridden all these bikes at various paces in various types of terrain, i just don't understand how anyone can say that a heavier, less well balanced, worse suspended bike can work better anywhere.

need a subframe? yes. need (for some reason) 14k or 20k+ valve check intervals? yes. need high stator output from the stock stator? yes. need a more comfy stock seat? yes.

actually ride better under any conditions? nope. not even close.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:29 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
i disagree completely.

imho, the lighter weight, better balance, and better suspension of a KTM make it work better at slow to moderate pace than a WRR, DRZ, etc.

in what way does a WRR (or DRZ or whatever) work better than an EXC at slow to moderate pace?

honestly, i don't get what anyone means when they say that. having ridden all these bikes at various paces in various types of terrain, i just don't understand how anyone can say that a heavier, less well balanced, worse suspended bike can work better anywhere.

need a subframe? yes. need (for some reason) 14k or 20k+ valve check intervals? yes. need high stator output from the stock stator? yes. need a more comfy stock seat? yes.

actually ride better under any conditions? nope. not even close.

Well, a heavier bike gets blown around less on the road and will even track a bit more stable off road... as long as you are going in a straight line!

Getting it to accelerate, stop or turn is of course another issue.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
i disagree completely.

imho, the lighter weight, better balance, and better suspension of a KTM make it work better at slow to moderate pace than a WRR, DRZ, etc.

in what way does a WRR (or DRZ or whatever) work better than an EXC at slow to moderate pace?

honestly, i don't get what anyone means when they say that. having ridden all these bikes at various paces in various types of terrain, i just don't understand how anyone can say that a heavier, less well balanced, worse suspended bike can work better anywhere.
Maybe they mean that a DS bike going slow works better than a DS bike going (trying to go) fast, and a race bike going fast works better than a race bike going (reluctantly) slow

Or that a race bike blows a DS out of the water less at slow speeds than it does at high speeds?

I mean, there has to be something other than price that justifies a heavier bike with worse suspension, right?
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